Live data from Hacker News

If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

theatlantic.com

201–210 of 361 posts

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#201

It continues to baffle me why the fact they're drones matter in the slightest. They're not autonomous, they're flown by pilots who just happen to not be sitting in the aircraft they're flying. Manned aircraft have killed huge groups of innocent civilians more than once, but apparently that's fine because the pilot was sitting in the aircraft.

It matters because it changes the fundamental nature of combat. If a pilot is in the plane you're risking an American life, not to mention a very expensive piece of equipment with numerous safety features etc. Now take away the risk to American life and lower the cost of the attack significantly, and viola, you've got a much itchier trigger finger now. If you've played MW3, which would you rather do, use the drone to…

To be specific, the impossibility of retaliation is what differentiates drone attacks from direct human attacks. The reason it is significant is exactly what the article points out. As the article says:

> Our policy persists because we put little value on the lives of foreign innocents.

Suppose, for argument's sake, that this is true: that America puts nearly no value on the lives of foreigners in the pursuit of foreign policy. Nevertheless, attacking so indiscriminately that weddings are targeted unknowingly would be unthinkable because of the tiny chance of retaliation. But with no chance of retaliation it becomes possible for depraved indifference to foreign lives to influence policy.

Now, you may not agree that American foreign policy is depraved in this fashion, but the REASON that many feel that drone strikes are morally different is because if it WAS depraved in this fashion, the use of drones would be different from the use of other military force.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#202
post #113
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's something important for you to realise. The next step is to understand that the US government didn't change much lately meaning that idea you had in your mind was never true since at least the end of the second world war. Then you get to wonder how you got to believe that in the first place.

You're right maybe it was a misunderstanding and maybe its misinformation but I couldve recalled Bush saying something along these lines about Iraq. I also believe some of my grade school teachers may have put these ideas in our head. I dont not fault them for it they were just trying to paint a rosy picture of America abroad. Just so you anyone knows, not all americans feel the same as our govt. does.

http://cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/bush.speech/index.html

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#203

I don't understand why commenters don't actually discuss Obama's argument. He has the following options: - Do nothing - Use drones - Use conventional weapons which, he argues, would have more collateral damage - Put troops on the ground and be perceived as an invader. So either you should argue that these are not the options or you should argue that he did not pick the right one.

Killing innocent people at weddings does far more to create people who want to destroy the US than it does to reduce their numbers. Just think about it for a few seconds. Nothing short of complete genocide would be an effective actual implementation of this "justification".

FWIW, the correct response to terrorism is to do nothing militarily, and treat it as a crime problem with an intelligence aspect nationally. People in faraway lands have little capability to do the US any harm.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#204
A great book to read on the decline of violence in the world: The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined by Steven Pinker.

The Hacker News community should like it as it focuses on the stats and facts rather than anecdotal stories the media slings.

The main thesis: Violence (in nearly every form) has been on a precipitous decline in the modern era. War deaths (and civilian causalities) are at all time lows and still declining.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-Angels-Our-Nature/dp/014312...

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#205

Not all that surpising. As was made clear during the Snowden leaks the USG doesn't consider human beings who aren't US citizens to have the same rights as Americans.

Here's something that will blow your mind. EVERY country considers its own citizens to have more rights than other countries. Otherwise we wouldn't have millions of people dying every year by preventable means. And there wouldn't be widespread despisement of refugees.

Just because other countries do something deplorable, doesn't mean the United States should do it too.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#207
post #39
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I find the most troubling. I used to think the US was trying to still spread democracy worldwide but apparently internally they feel if you are foreign that means there arent any laws as to what we can and cant do.

What happens when a nation's revolutionary document becomes counterrevolutionary? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

There are two opposing views of the Declaration and the Constitution.

One view considers these documents to be the expression of the inclusive rights granted to the citizenship.

The other view considers these documents to be the definition of the extents and limits of federal and state powers.

The first view currently prevails but that was not always the case. Under the second view you can not waive your right to remain silent, or waive your right to unreasonable searches. In other words, being Mirandized doesn't grant the right. It's simply informing you of what you always have.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#208
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very easy to not agree with the way the US government handles these sort of things, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not doing this for shits and giggles. It might seem nationalistic to some but it reminds me of a quote from "A Few Good Men" - Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I h…

It's very easy to not agree with the way the North Korean government handles many things, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not doing it for shits and giggles. After all, they have been at war for over 60 years now. It must be obvious to any patriotic Korean that the danger posed by American imperialists who still occupy the southern half of the country is ever-present and growing. Some…

Yes, of course. Because there is no meaningful difference between the government of the United States and that of North Korea.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#210
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for defence companies in the past. There are no morals and ethics. Just profit and plunder. The parent of your post is spot on.

"I worked for war companies in the past"

Exactly that.

And I'm fucking ashamed of myself for doing it, unlike the other 132000 employees who still work there.

I was naive to the point of being stupid.

Post reply on HN