Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> There's a large body of literature that attempts to justify centralization of power Of course there is. We've lived under centralized power for hundreds or thousands of years, after all. Why would The Powers That Be suddenly cease wanting to Be? But centralized power cannot be justified , it can only be rationalized. If you think about the idea of the social contract for a moment, you should realize that it's not…
Sounds much like the system of property.
Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
61–70 of 145 posts
Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
> No matter how much we want everyone to live, we can't try and ensure it through coercion. Besides, coercion only works for evil. You can't achieve good through coercion. Whenever you try, it has the opposite effect. Justify your religious faith using objective data and control groups, or go back to church, please.
Feel free to refute my minimum wage example for starters. Here's another: 1) you want to help the poor 2) you confiscate wealth from other people, and give it to the poor 3) you have just removed money from the economy and caused it to get used much less efficiently than it would have, and demotivated lots of people from doing business and producing value to the world at large.
In contrast, I do not have to justify my position that no ideology or system being proposed today is globally optimal. That is simply an accepted truism.
Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#63Youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB9rp_SAp2U
Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Introduction to Anarchism, the author suggests that the future direction in anarchism could be to support local governments and having power on a local, rather than national level. http://www.amazon.com/Anarchism-A-Very-Short-Introduction/dp...
Well, that would be highly devolved government, not anarchism, no? Shouldn't Chomsky avoid such confusing langauge? I'm no better off serving a local collective than a national collective.
Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#65Anarchism is pure nonsense. There is literally no such thing as "no government." In a "state of nature," every government is size 1---you. You are responsible for retaliatory and initiatory force, and every interaction is foreign diplomacy with a gun behind it. From there, things can (and will) evolve so that there are larger governments, but you cannot get "no government."
Your profile looks like you're an objectivist. But as others pointed out, you can't just dismiss anarchism off-hand. As an objectivist, you're against coercion, but in favour of centralized power? Is that correct? If so, don't you think it's a contradictory idea?
I have my own philosophy, induced from reality, which (conveniently enough) corresponds to Objectivism (since they both use a logical methodology).
> But as others pointed out, you can't just dismiss anarchism off-hand.
Correct, and I can make a number of arguments against anarchy. That is just the simplest and most clever I have run up against other than "It's contradictory."
> As an objectivist, you're against coercion, but in favour of centralized power? Is that correct? If so, don't you think it's a contradictory idea?
That is a good question that people often have. I think the government should use retaliatory force, never initiatory force. Preventing alternate defense agencies (the anarcho-capitalist idea) and levying taxes for the proper functions of government (police, courts, and military) actually are retaliatory exercises of force, not initiated force.
The threat of initiated force is tantamount to initiated force. So, retaliatory force to stop a threat is legitimate. Moreover, consider the case of a just war against a country that threatens the US; there may be civilian casualties among non-participants in the country of the enemy. The proximate cause of such casualties would be the US military, but the fundamental cause is the enemy government; they died to retaliatory force. A similar case is occuring when an ideal government uses force to collect minimal taxes to establish police, courts, and military. The fundamental cause is the natural threat of those that would violate rights. It would be ideal if all funding for government could be levied voluntarily, via donations, but if not, my argument here provides a solution.
This is not an Objectivist view, because it was not part of anything Ayn Rand wrote. I think many Objectivists would consider it to be compatible with Objectivism, while some no doubt wouldn't.
Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#66Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Pure nonsense"... is that your educated critique, or are you just trolling to make space for a straw man argument? Because I get the sense that you haven't read enough about anarchism if you think it constitutes 'no government'.
Maybe you are actually pointing out a misunderstanding I have. I thought "anarchism" meant "no government." If it doesn't, why don't anarchists use a different term? Can you think of a more descriptive term? It is certainly the case that anarcho-capitalists are for "no government."
EDIT: corrected year of unpublished Rothbard note
Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, that would be highly devolved government, not anarchism, no? Shouldn't Chomsky avoid such confusing langauge? I'm no better off serving a local collective than a national collective.
The idea is that he does not speak for all anarchists, just like the idea in the book I read doesn't either.
Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Feel free to argue against the points presented in the video. Capitalism is such a messed-up term these days. To me it means free, voluntary exchanges and agreements/contracts between people, but most people have been propagandized to view it as "evil capitalist pigs exploiting and oppressing the poor". But capitalism cannot be replaced, it's what people do when they're allowed to, after all. It's about people pursui…
The countervailing argument to "voluntary exchange" is that many trades are highly unequal, and in extreme cases, difficult to distinguish from choices made under duress (starvation vs. sweatshop, expensive medication vs. death, etc) On top of that, trades that involve large quantities of capital must still rely upon law and violence to guard ownership, and therefore at least somewhat subject to public jurisdiction.…
If an exchange is genuinely voluntary, it leaves both parties better off by definition. You value whatever you're giving up lower than what you're getting in exchange, because otherwise you just wouldn't go through the trade.
>> On top of that, trades that involve large quantities of capital must still rely upon law and violence to guard ownership, and therefore at least somewhat subject to public jurisdiction
Everyone naturally has the right to defend his property, through whatever means necessary. Not only that, but we all intuitively agree on what property is. An apple in your hand is automatically assumed to be your property, and so is the apartment you live in, or the factory everyone has always known you to own and run. If you see a car on the street, you don't assume it's no one's property even if there's no one in it.
>> For better or worse, we should take responsibility for the relationship between private capital and the social contract, even if it is for the purpose of maintaining private ownership.
I can't tell what that's supposed to mean. But again, your property is your property, and you have the right to defend it regardless of whether a State exists.
>> capitalism is the worst system, except for all the others
Capitalism is not a "system". It's not something that's imposed on anyone, but instead, it's just all the things people do in their pursuit of personal gain - exchanges, commerce, investments, and contracts etc. If you see problems with "Capitalism", they're actually problems with Crony-Capitalism, and caused by the State. Those evil corporations buy political power, and then use it to prevent competition, to rape nature, pass their losses on to us, and so on. All the nasty stuff.
Re: Noam Chomsky – "On Anarchism" [video]
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> How do we convince individualists that some services need to be established by the collective itself and not an offshoot (syndicate/business)? We don't, because you're talking about imposing some "services" on other people, which always happens through coercion. We should both be aware that coercion is bad, mm'kay? "But who will build the roads?!" is like asking an anti-slavery activist "but who will pick the cott…
The only way to protect property is by force. At that point you're talking about imposing your concept of your property on others. To me that sounds immoral, but I am not an "anarcho-capitalist".