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The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

nytimes.com

61–70 of 131 posts

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#61
Something that was briefly mention but not really explored in the article is the amount of abuse of drugs like adderall among students, specifically students in advanced placement and gifted programs.

Speaking as a high school student taking finals in the coming week, I'd estimate that around 30% (roughly) of my peers are taking adderall at some point in the coming week without any kind of prescription or oversight. It's not like it's difficult for them to get said drugs; as the article states 1 in 7 people are diagnosed with ADHD by the time they're 18.

What that means is that you've got teenagers taking serious prescription medication without knowing what an appropriate dosage is and possible side-effects, and you have students who actually need said medication to stay focused and productive selling it and not taking it.

The sad part is that this isn't addressed at all. Most of these students are great kids placing in the top 10% of their class and thus it's assumed that they're somehow immune to substance abuse. All of the drug education focused at students assumes that teenagers are doing drugs or drinking for recreation and doesn't touch on prescription abuse and better ways of dealing with things like over-scheduling and stress.

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#62

I don't know. I just don't know. I earned a perfect score on the SAT and was voted "Class Genius" in the yearbook, but barely graduated from high school. I was dismissed from university. I went to work for a machine learning company, where we (self included!) did some really neat stuff, including some heroic pre-sales-meeting coding that saved the day in a minor way. But I was fired six months in for low productivity…

This is an honest post, thanks for sharing.

I am confused by something though. I have only (to my knowledge) known one person that got a perfect score on the SAT. The reason is that it requires both reasoning as well as 'stamp collecting'--(i.e. book knowledge). If you didn't bother to learn all the obscure vocabulary words used on the SAT that most high schoolers don't know--(extol, capricious, etc.)--then you must've been an exceptional reader. Where did you get this other knowledge? Did you just read a lot?

If you 'barely graduated' high school and got dismissed with university, then you must've simply not done the work. I've known plenty of people that were smart, but lazy.

If you are gifted at a young age, it's easy to get relaxed... become lazy and satsified with the easy victories. The only way you can break this cycle is to endeavor to place a hurdle in front of yourself, one that you can't easily jump.

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#63
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a brilliant idea—help a person by framing their issues as personal and moral failures. That's sure to be a positive catalyst for change. EDIT: For some reason I can't respond to the comment below. My point was, it's easy to frame problems with terms like "weak", "irresponsible", and "lazy". It's hard to actually attempt to communicate, identify a problem in a way that you can talk about the same thing, and fin…

> Here's a brilliant idea—help a person by framing their issues as personal and moral failures. That's sure to be a positive catalyst for change. You're being sarcastic, but it actually IS. We live in a culture where everything is a disorder. How convenient, that all of your failures can be blamed on something you don't control. Here's an idea. Everything you don't take responsibility for. Everything you don't see as…

This is very relevant:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_que...

>If something is a real disease, the patient deserves our sympathy and support; for example, cancer sufferers must universally be described as "brave". If it is not a real disease, people are more likely to get our condemnation; for example Sandy's husband who calls her a "pig" for her inability to control her eating habits. The difference between "shyness" and "social anxiety disorder" is that people with the first get called "weird" and told to man up, and people with the second get special privileges and the sympathy of those around them.

>And if something is a real disease, it is socially acceptable (maybe even mandated) to seek medical treatment for it. If it's not a disease, medical treatment gets derided as a "quick fix" or an "abdication of personal responsibility".

...

>People who make good decisions are intrinsically good people and deserve good treatment; people who make bad decisions are intrinsically bad people and deserve bad treatment. But people who make bad decisions for reasons that are outside of their free will may not be intrinsically bad people, and may therefore be absolved from deserving bad treatment.

>[But] because all actions are biologically determined, none are more or less metaphysically blameworthy than others, and none can mark anyone with the metaphysical status of "bad person" and make them "deserve" bad treatment. Consequentialists don't on a primary level want anyone to be treated badly, full stop

>if giving condemnation instead of sympathy decreases the incidence of the disease enough to be worth the hurt feelings, condemn; otherwise, sympathize.... Yelling at a cancer patient, shouting "How dare you allow your cells to divide in an uncontrolled manner like this; is that the way your mother raised you??!" will probably make the patient feel pretty awful, but it's not going to cure the cancer. Telling a lazy person "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," very well might cure the laziness.

Sorry for the overly long summary, I didn't want to cut out the important points.

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#64
There's a major black market at my college (top 10 liberal arts) for Ritalin and Adderall. At least half the students I know have, at some point, taken it as a study tool. It's super frustrating for the kids of have ADHD, because they need it to get on par with other students. Then other students take it to get another leg up.

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#65

I don't suffer from ADD/ADHD but I grew up during the 90's, when lots of kids in school, around me, were being put on all kinds of prescription medication, but most prevalent were the ADD/ADHD prescriptions. Of the roughly 20 names I can remember, who I know for a fact were prescribed ADD/ADHD medications, AND who I knew growing up both before the medication and after, there was only one guy that obviously had proble…

Just because they didn't "obviously have problems" doesn't mean they didn't.

They are amphetamines but so what? It's a much lower dose, prescribed by a doctor, and is not considered to be addictive. A lot of bad drugs are/have been used in medicine.

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#66
post #9

I don't know if I really have ADD. There's no real physiological test for it, just self-assessments and the rejection of the null hypothesis upon the introduction of various drugs. What I do know: until I started treatment for ADD, the entire concept of "willpower" or "motivation" just didn't make sense to me. It was something other people had, maybe; or perhaps they were lying. But with treatment, "motivating myself…

Huh? There are most certainly proper tests for ADD, of all of types and varieties. It is unfortunate that self reporting is the most frequently used diagnostic technique, but it is by no means the only one. Heck there are structural brain differences in people with ADHD that can be detected!

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#67
(Using a throw away account because of the stigma)

For those who are curious if ADHD is real? I can tell you, from my personal experience, it is.

I grew up with it all my life. It is hell. Then I randomly decided to try Paleo (cutting out gluten, sugar, grain and caffeine). And my ADHD is gone. I can focus, my mental fog is lifted, my lethargy is gone, I have the ability to enjoy normal activities.

* My personal Proof: In the last 2 years about 15 times I have cheated on my Paleo diet, by eating bread or a decent amount of sugar. About 12 out of 15 of those times my brain chemistry was quickly affected. I had my old impairments and extreme inability to focus.

* I realize the causes for ADHD for me are not necessarily the same as others. It's probably a host of causes that affect the brain in a similar way. However, I am sure there are more people out there who are like me. FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE MY ALLERGY TO GLUTEN: ADHD IS A REAL DISEASE. AND IT IS HELL.

## What it feels like to have ADD/ADHD

Because I can intentionally turn off my ADHD by eating Paleo or turn it back on, like clock work by eating grain or sugar, I can tell you what having ADHD is like in a very exact way.

# Eating Paleo for 3 weeks straight (no ADHD):

I still don’t feel like doing work often time. Some time work sounds fun and some time it doesn’t. Its the same feeling I saw most my peers in college have towards work.

If I don’t feel like doing something I really have to find a reason to make my self do it. (Basically the standard thing non ADD people say).

# With ADHD (eating a piece of bread)

Unexplainable feeling of mental uncomfortableness (EXTREME, HORRIBLE, and PAINFUL boredom) that can only be slightly assuaged with heavy distraction.

Want to know what it feels like?

- Imagine being on a 10 hour flight that just landed, you can’t wait to get up and walk out into the terminal, however, each person in front of you is taking longer and longer to get their stuff. Before you know it you have been sitting in your seat for over an hour waiting to get off. You are sitting in your seat unable to comfort your feelings of boredom and discomfort with the wait. Now multiply that negative feeling by 10. You might start to be rude to people just so that you have something to distract your pain with. You might start making dumb noises so people will stair at you and give you attention. This attention will help distract the unfathomable boredom/pain you are feeling.

(In one of my college classes I would take my rolling chair and go up and down a slight ramp in the class room while the teacher was giving lecture. I knew I was being and idiot. I knew I wanted to pay attention to the teacher and learn. However, the brief and little relief this distraction gave me was incredibly tempting. I would rather do things that made me feel pathetic than feel the pain of ADHD.)

- Imagine your mental capacity to think and remember words is cut by about 20-50%

- Imagine your motivation to work towards your dreams is cut by about 20-50%

- Imagine you can’t think of anything in the world that would excite you. Everything seems so un entertaining and boring. And this is not depression. I can be extremely happy and simply just eat a piece of bread and my whole mental mood changes. I feel like I am under a drug that gives me ADHD. It doesn’t make me depressed. It just makes everything seem so un satisfying (in regards to entertainment). Growing up I couldn’t play video games longer than 20 mins, even for the most critically acclaimed games, I would become mind numbingly bored.

So thats what having ADHD is like, its REAL (well I can only speak for myself).

I’m probably a lot like many people here reading this on HN: I am extremely smart but struggled in school due to my ADHD. I got good grades in physics classes such as special relativity and decent grades in advanced math classes such as calc III. In spite of my ADHD. I wouldn’t study or do homework. Well sometimes I would copy homework. And luckily I took enough a way from lecture to get good grades on the tests.

However, I never ended up finishing my degree because as time went on I couldn’t keep up the good grades as my programming classes depended more on more doing actual work. I remember getting an B in systems programming in C class because I set the curve on all the tests. I finished many of the programs (starting the night before they were do), however I didn’t even turn in the last three programs (I felt so pathetic). But soon the demands in classes start to become greater. They weren’t just programs I could do in a 12 hour marathon the night before. I even tried 5 different ADHD drugs over a 1.5 year period, none of them really helped enough to be worth the side affects. I didn't like not feeling like myself and the ups and downs as the drugs take affect and then wear off. Though, god damn it did feel nice to finally not feel the pain of ADHD for a few hours. I

I ended up dropping out, however, luckily a few years later I discovered Paleo. I now wake up at 5am every morning. I am writing a book in the mornings and I am a lead dev at a great company where I easily put in an 8-9 hour a day every day. (When I was in college I interned at Microsoft I couldn’t work for more than about 2 hours a day and I wouldn’t even stay on the campus for more than 4-6 hours out of the horrible pain of the boredom.) I would arrive at work around 10:30 am, take a 1.5 lunch and then leave by 2pm or 3pm and head back to my company provided apartment. I hated my self and it was horrible. Now, I am proud of my self and love doing 10-11 hour days of work (including the book). And I don’t take any drugs, I don’t even drink coffee or tea! Zero caffeine.

This person’s book http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp7E973zozc and listening to music is my caffeine. If I don’t feel like starting some work, I remember that "doing the things I don’t feel like doing is the only way I will get the things I want". I then put on my headphones and listen to music that pumps me up. After a few minutes I get into my work and have a hard time remembering to stop for lunch.

# Final Words

So if you think you have ADHD please try Paleo for 30 days, then eat a meal with a bunch of bread and sugar. See if you see an instant stark change in your mental make up. The easiest (so probably the most effective) way to eat Paleo for 30 days is to buy a bunch of meal sized Tupperware, each week go to costco and find some cooked meat (chicken, pulled pork, etc) with no sauces or added wheat. Just meat. Buy some different frozen vegetables (no white potatoes), buy some cooked sweet potatoes or squash, buy some fruit for snacks. Make your 14 lunches and dinners on Sunday. Put them in your fridge and bring your lunch to work. I also make scrambled eggs for 7 days on Sunday and put them in Tupperware. If you have prepped food you are much more likely to succeed against the temptations of cheating. Know: the first 5 days of taking sugar and grain out of your diet are going to be the hardest you will be hit with withdrawals. For some people this feels like getting the flu!

A good primer on the Paleo diet http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/paleo-diet-craze-pt-1

More info about Paleo (know this diet has become a fad, not all websites promoting the “pale diet” are actually promoting the real diet. I recommend, at least initially, only using Loren Cordain, PH.D as a source for information. His book “The Paleo Diet" is great. http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/paleo-diet-craze-pt-1

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#68
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Was it brain chemistry? ADD? Millenial entitlement? The Bipolar Lisp personality? Depression? SAD? A once-seen-impossible-to-unsee glimpse of the Gervais Principle? Oh please, enough with the drama. I've led the same life. So has everyone else here. I had the foresight to realize my ailment early on. I'm lazy and bored easily, which is really the same thing. > But I was fired six months in for low productivity and…

I want to engage with this comment because it's one commonly encountered with this sort of thing. >Oh please, enough with the drama. I've led the same life. So has everyone else here. It is precisely my tiring of drama that's led me to my present attitude. Please note that this was a response to an article someone else posted, not a please-pay-attention-to-me self-post. I never talk about this sort of thing in person…

> Candidly, this strikes me as relatively irresponsible advice, and half-humblebrag. "I just get so bored with normal corporate work, you know? I always need something new."

Wouldn't know, I've never done corporate work. Merely commenting that I myself frequently get tired of doing the same thing after a month or two, to the point where things simply don't get done. Hence the recommendation for short-term projects.

> Those who would judge you as lazy probably can't be communicated with---the answer to that is simply producing.

When you produce, isn't that the cure? Not everyone needs a pat on the back.

> I do wish to provide some hope for those who think they may have some sort of condition, but are wary of the stigma associated with acknowleding such.

As do I. The first step is rejecting this nonsense about "conditions".

What you have or don't have, you don't know and quite frankly, nobody can tell you. It doesn't matter either. You have it and it's not going anywhere.

What you have control over, however, is how you live your life. Far better than medicating yourself to the grave, is to simply mold your life to reflect who you are. A blind man shouldn't live next to a cliff.

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#69

I don't know. I just don't know. I earned a perfect score on the SAT and was voted "Class Genius" in the yearbook, but barely graduated from high school. I was dismissed from university. I went to work for a machine learning company, where we (self included!) did some really neat stuff, including some heroic pre-sales-meeting coding that saved the day in a minor way. But I was fired six months in for low productivity…

I can strongly identify with your story. However, I have been able to "cure" my ADHD, please read my comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6908027 and let me know what you think.

Re: The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder

#70
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to engage with this comment because it's one commonly encountered with this sort of thing. >Oh please, enough with the drama. I've led the same life. So has everyone else here. It is precisely my tiring of drama that's led me to my present attitude. Please note that this was a response to an article someone else posted, not a please-pay-attention-to-me self-post. I never talk about this sort of thing in person…

> Candidly, this strikes me as relatively irresponsible advice, and half-humblebrag. "I just get so bored with normal corporate work, you know? I always need something new." Wouldn't know, I've never done corporate work. Merely commenting that I myself frequently get tired of doing the same thing after a month or two, to the point where things simply don't get done. Hence the recommendation for short-term projects. >…

> What you have or don't have, you don't know and quite frankly, nobody can tell you. It doesn't matter either. You have it and it's not going anywhere.

How to take control and improve the life you live is the point of all of this. Identifying what you have is the difference between finding a solution by random chance and a focused search of known successful strategies. Once you know you have a bacterial infection, you have a smaller pool of known strategies to deal with your problems and improve your life.

If you found a solution, at random, to your own problems, like switching projects before your lack of interest hurts you, then you had good luck. You cannot generalize luck.

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