US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake • Hacker News Board

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#61

Post by MrZongle2 » Fri, Dec 13, 2013, 5:27 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #33

MrZongle2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine the holy hell if a foreign government did that in a US city? After the events of the last year, I don't have that much trouble imagining the US government doing that in a US city.

Yes, no conceptual leap at all between the NSA getting U.S. communications caught up in filters targeted for foreigners and the military just blowing up people in U.S. cities. No fucking difference at all.

Our government seems to be fine with willfully disregarding the 4th Amendment.

What makes you think that it's such a great conceptual leap to the point where they disregard the 5th (due process)?

They've already applied it to American citizens outside the country, if they're in the company of known terrorists.

Ten years ago, twenty years ago, the scope of the NSA's constitutional violations would have been unthinkable.

Now look where we are.

If you can't conceive of such a "leap", that's your problem. It's hardly outrageous to worry about such things now.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#62

Post by javajosh » Fri, Dec 13, 2013, 5:51 PM UTC

victorhooi wrote: post #40

dragonwriter wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S. just gets the brunt of the blame for these sorts of accidents because it bankrolls geopolitical stability for the rest of the world. "bankrolling geopolitical stability for the rest of the world" is a nice attempt to recast maintaining a global empire through military power as if it was a selfless, altruistic deed. But its not even remotely accurate .

I don't know if we can speak about their motives , but they certainly contribute to overall stability. Use your head for a second. The US government hands out millions of dollars in foreign aid to it's "enemies" - governments who are quite happy to parade around talking about standing up the US, and then holding out their hand for handouts from them. It's quite clear what they're doing - they're basically doling out…

That is actually true. Consider Syria: Assad is a horrible person, but the Islamist groups currently fighting him are worse. Much worse.

America is the de facto World Police. And frankly I'd be okay with assuming that role if we did a good job with it. One problem with us being World Police is that we pursue our own geopolitical goals, and so it's impossible for a single nation to really be objective about policing the rest of the world - that's why we need institutions like the United Nations and, to a lesser extent, the World Trade Organization.

The really interesting thing about the USA, now that I think about it, is how willing we are to bankroll our gigantic military. Historically its clearly momentum from the cold war - culturally we're used to spending this kind of money to deter the Soviets. And now the fear of terrorism (and perhaps a more fundamental fear of change) keeps us spending gigantic sums on force. But we don't really take our responsibilities as World Police very seriously. If we did, we'd have something akin to an Internal Affairs department, at the federal level, that was easily accessible from anywhere in the world. And we'd stop treating foreigners like a different class of people - you can't (and indeed shouldn't) police people you see as fundamentally different, less, than yourself. That's just asking for trouble of a despotic nature.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#63

Post by basch » Fri, Dec 13, 2013, 8:59 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #24

nfg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean then?

It refers to the belief that Americans as a people are specially suited for doing things exceptionally.

american exceptionalism generally refers to the state and its machine not the people.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#64

Post by basch » Fri, Dec 13, 2013, 9:02 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #62

victorhooi wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if we can speak about their motives , but they certainly contribute to overall stability. Use your head for a second. The US government hands out millions of dollars in foreign aid to it's "enemies" - governments who are quite happy to parade around talking about standing up the US, and then holding out their hand for handouts from them. It's quite clear what they're doing - they're basically doling out…

That is actually true. Consider Syria: Assad is a horrible person, but the Islamist groups currently fighting him are worse. Much worse. America is the de facto World Police. And frankly I'd be okay with assuming that role if we did a good job with it. One problem with us being World Police is that we pursue our own geopolitical goals, and so it's impossible for a single nation to really be objective about policing t…

brilliant final three lines.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#65

Post by downer89 » Fri, Dec 13, 2013, 11:19 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #44

downer89 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the idea that reducing risk to military personnel actually provokes a steep increase in the propensity to indiscriminately wipe out civilians, simply because the fear of any consequence has been mitigated. So as you approach zero risk, the occurence of applied lethal force accelerates on a curve toward an asymptote.

Is that theory supported by any evidence? My guess is that under Obama and drones, fewer civilians have been accidentally killed then under say Clinton and cruise missiles.

This isn't a theory specific to the premise of drones. It's a natural human tendency. It's why school-yard bullies exist.

In the absence of an principled, ethical personality, the discovery of impunity, combined with any obvious benefit obtained by way of abuse precipitates unrestrained abuse.

A greedy person that can get away with something will act in favor of obtaining an object of desire.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#66

Post by vfclists » Sun, Dec 22, 2013, 11:29 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #47

vfclists wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not because Yemen is a failed state which is another bit of nonsensical terminology invented by the genocidal US policy hawks. It is a failed state primarily because it has corrupt leadership that is willing to take bribes from the US government and their armaments companies to engage in extra judicial killings of their citizens.

States exist to preserve internal security and impose the rule of law. Neither of these things exist in Yemen. It's a failed state by definition. As for how it got that way, it has nothing to do with the U.S. It's the result of the civil war in the 1990s.

The Soviet state murdered 30 million of its 'own' citizens between its establishment and the onset of the 2nd world war. The 2 world wars between the major European states resulted in the death of 100 million people. Are these the signs of what you call 'successful' states as opposed to failed states? Do you consider the deaths in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq as the result of actions by a 'successful' state, ie the US?

The failed states you speak about have only failed because of the wars which destroy them are funded by the major powers who can keep those low level wars going indefinitely at minimal cost to themselves. Most wars come to an end because the combatants simply lack the resources to keep them going, unless they are funded from the outside, in this case the US and its Middle Eastern proxies.

Your concept of 'failed state' is the product of the noxious foul diet of neocon propaganda that passes for a liberal American education, and only exists to gain the consent of the US population to indebt them, their children and their great-grandchildren to fund their genocidal activities.

Do your self a favor and purge yourself of it.