Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 66 posts

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#41

Post by dragonwriter »

victorhooi wrote: post #40
dragonwriter wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S. just gets the brunt of the blame for these sorts of accidents because it bankrolls geopolitical stability for the rest of the world. "bankrolling geopolitical stability for the rest of the world" is a nice attempt to recast maintaining a global empire through military power as if it was a selfless, altruistic deed. But its not even remotely accurate .

I don't know if we can speak about their motives , but they certainly contribute to overall stability. Use your head for a second. The US government hands out millions of dollars in foreign aid to it's "enemies" - governments who are quite happy to parade around talking about standing up the US, and then holding out their hand for handouts from them. It's quite clear what they're doing - they're basically doling out…

> I don't know if we can speak about their motives, but they certainly contribute to overall stability.

"For the world" is speaking to motives. America isn't bankrolling "stability for the world", its bankrolling stability where it suits the interest of American decision-makers, and instability where stability doesn't those interests.

> The US is very interested in global stability

Except for those places where its interested in altering the status quo, in which cases it spends lavishly on doing that.

> you can argue that's also in their own interests as well

"Their own interests" -- that is, those of American decision-makers -- are the only factor, not an incidental "as well" factor, in the decision of where to bankroll stability and where to bankroll instability.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#42

Post by rayiner »

dragonwriter wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this does not have to do with "American Exceptionalism." It has to do with the much more basic concept that sovereign nations reserve the right to kill people in other sovereign nations in pursuit of their own security. The U.S. just gets the brunt of the blame for these sorts of accidents because it bankrolls geopolitical stability for the rest of the world.

> The U.S. just gets the brunt of the blame for these sorts of accidents because it bankrolls geopolitical stability for the rest of the world. "bankrolling geopolitical stability for the rest of the world" is a nice attempt to recast maintaining a global empire through military power as if it was a selfless, altruistic deed. But its not even remotely accurate .

The U.S. does maintain dominance, but it's not quite correct to say that it maintains a global empire. Instead, it maintains the status quo where it is at the top, but where it's traditional allies are also in favorable positions.

It's not altruistic, certainly, but it's not entirely selfish either. Obviously as the preeminent world power the U.S. benefits from the status quo. However, so does Europe. And India and China have done pretty well under the worldwide stability that American military power has bankrolled.

Look at history before the rise of the U.S. Was it free of great powers intervening in lesser countries to maintain a particular world order? Of course not. A course in European history is a course in how the great powers of a Europe used military intervention to maintain their status. Today, much of what Europe (and China and India, let's be honest) would otherwise do is subsidized by the U.S. Or do you think that if America pulled out of the Middle East everyone else would just let them do whatever they want?

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#43

Post by o2sd98 »

msg wrote: post #13
o2sd98 wrote: post #5

Does anyone keep a tally on how many civilians the US has murdered with drones?

Yes. http://www.livingunderdrones.org/numbers/ There are no 100% solid estimates because of problems with reliable sources, but here are a couple of links to get you started. http://natsec.newamerica.net/drones/pakistan/analysis http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/Yemen/code/Yemen-st... http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/category/projects/drone...

Thanks, that was equally informative as it was depressing.

It's not exactly something that is winning the hearts and minds of people in the middle east. I guess the western powers are passed that now, and are engaged in a crusade.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#44

Post by rayiner »

downer89 wrote: post #38
andrewfong wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shut down all armed drones. Review the entire use of them from top to bottom. This isn't a video game, there is no do-over. To be clear, this isn't a "drone" problem per so, so much as an "airpower" one. There have been plenty of incidents where the use of manned aircraft have resulted in similar (probably) inadvertent civilian casualties -- e.g. the AH-64 attack depicted in the "Collateral Murder" video or the bom…

Consider the idea that reducing risk to military personnel actually provokes a steep increase in the propensity to indiscriminately wipe out civilians, simply because the fear of any consequence has been mitigated. So as you approach zero risk, the occurence of applied lethal force accelerates on a curve toward an asymptote.

Is that theory supported by any evidence? My guess is that under Obama and drones, fewer civilians have been accidentally killed then under say Clinton and cruise missiles.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#45

Post by geoka9 »

rayiner wrote: post #35
atmosx wrote: post #28

The only question that really puzzles me and probably should puzzle USA citizens is: Why is a USA drone flying in Yemen anyway?

Because Yemen is a failed state and a hotbed of terrorism, and the U.S. believes that it's important for geopolitical stability to keep it in check. There's nothing puzzling about it. This is the way the world has worked for centuries, and how the U.S. has worked since its founding. The great powers intervene in small nations to put out brush fires that could upset the global status quo. It's like the history of Euro…

> to put out brush fires that could upset the global status quo.

I thought we had UN for that?

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#46

Post by vfclists »

rayiner wrote: post #35
atmosx wrote: post #28

The only question that really puzzles me and probably should puzzle USA citizens is: Why is a USA drone flying in Yemen anyway?

Because Yemen is a failed state and a hotbed of terrorism, and the U.S. believes that it's important for geopolitical stability to keep it in check. There's nothing puzzling about it. This is the way the world has worked for centuries, and how the U.S. has worked since its founding. The great powers intervene in small nations to put out brush fires that could upset the global status quo. It's like the history of Euro…

It is not because Yemen is a failed state which is another bit of nonsensical terminology invented by the genocidal US policy hawks.

It is a failed state primarily because it has corrupt leadership that is willing to take bribes from the US government and their armaments companies to engage in extra judicial killings of their citizens.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#47

Post by rayiner »

vfclists wrote: post #46
rayiner wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Yemen is a failed state and a hotbed of terrorism, and the U.S. believes that it's important for geopolitical stability to keep it in check. There's nothing puzzling about it. This is the way the world has worked for centuries, and how the U.S. has worked since its founding. The great powers intervene in small nations to put out brush fires that could upset the global status quo. It's like the history of Euro…

It is not because Yemen is a failed state which is another bit of nonsensical terminology invented by the genocidal US policy hawks. It is a failed state primarily because it has corrupt leadership that is willing to take bribes from the US government and their armaments companies to engage in extra judicial killings of their citizens.

States exist to preserve internal security and impose the rule of law. Neither of these things exist in Yemen. It's a failed state by definition.

As for how it got that way, it has nothing to do with the U.S. It's the result of the civil war in the 1990s.

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#48

Post by X4 »

ck2 wrote: post #2

Wait, ANOTHER wedding? Didn't we do this a year or two ago also? We just wiped out 15 completely innocent people? Destroying their lives and their families forever? Can you imagine the holy hell if a foreign government did that in a US city? Shut down all armed drones. Review the entire use of them from top to bottom. This isn't a video game, there is no do-over.

Isn't that illegal? Or is that legal, because there is officially war between American and Yemen? (serious)

I thought the legal implications of terminating people from a foreign country remotely is either an act of aggression or already war, depending on how the affected political party sees it.

So either it means:

a) America would have to pay for the losses and families.

b) Yemen and America are in war.

c) Yemen capitulated against America.

Otherwise I don't understand. :-/

(Sorry, if someone feels that this is too logical, non-emotional. I'm of course, against killing and drone attacks.)

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#49

Post by dsuth »

winfred wrote: post #39
ck2 wrote: post #2

Wait, ANOTHER wedding? Didn't we do this a year or two ago also? We just wiped out 15 completely innocent people? Destroying their lives and their families forever? Can you imagine the holy hell if a foreign government did that in a US city? Shut down all armed drones. Review the entire use of them from top to bottom. This isn't a video game, there is no do-over.

>Wait, ANOTHER wedding? Didn't we do this a year or two ago also? There is a reason for that. The locals use the US as their weapon of revenge. So if one family has an ongoing argument with another family and one of them is throwing a wedding, the other family reports it as an Al Quaida meeting. Often these family conflicts have lasted for years already and likely more people died in the past (not by drones) So it wa…

Do you have any kind of source for that?

Re: US drone strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake

#50

Post by joering2 »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #4
ck2 wrote: post #2

Wait, ANOTHER wedding? Didn't we do this a year or two ago also? We just wiped out 15 completely innocent people? Destroying their lives and their families forever? Can you imagine the holy hell if a foreign government did that in a US city? Shut down all armed drones. Review the entire use of them from top to bottom. This isn't a video game, there is no do-over.

Can you imagine the holy hell if a foreign government did that in a US city? After the events of the last year, I don't have that much trouble imagining the US government doing that in a US city.

For now Bush does not travel by public planes, because of some places like Switzerland he [1] can be persecuted for war /torture crimes.

If US forces truly invade Iraq to bring justice and democracy, then let's hope one day Iraqiis government will succeed in building that. And send a justified drone after Bush.

[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/05/bush-switzerland-to...

Post reply on HN