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Techies Are the New Puritans

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Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#111

Post by aaronem »

Crito wrote: post #95
jarrett wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, we need to distinguish between homelessness and poverty on the one hand, and crime on the other. The two may overlap for some individuals (just as wealth and crime overlap for some), but they're by no means synonymous. The legitimate complaints about the homeless in SF seem to always revolve around criminal acts: Assault and vandalism, mostly. (The less legitimate complaints are usually a variant on "I shouldn…

I agree that whatever the situation, remembering that not all of the broader group are responsible for all of the publicly visible actions. It may be the homeless, bar hoppers, or students that are causing elevated crime in some area, but it is important to remember that not every homeless person, Friday night drinker, or student is a public menace by association. Still, if we want to know why the general public is d…

"The score is four/And next time more!"

Yes, I know it's a counterfactual, but I can never resist the opportunity to toss out that old chestnut, because just about every time I do so, it meets two or three people who not only have never heard of it, but never imagined it possible.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#112

Post by cynicalkane »

jarrett wrote: post #73
Crito wrote: post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

First, we need to distinguish between homelessness and poverty on the one hand, and crime on the other. The two may overlap for some individuals (just as wealth and crime overlap for some), but they're by no means synonymous. The legitimate complaints about the homeless in SF seem to always revolve around criminal acts: Assault and vandalism, mostly. (The less legitimate complaints are usually a variant on "I shouldn…

I guarantee you that San Francisco does not adequately prosecute people who poop on the street or shout dirty comments at passers-by. And I guarantee you that complaining about the homeless problem does not mean a lack of compassion for an "already marginalized group". And SF is so politically correct that prosecuting members of this "already marginalized group" is a political challenge (although California has no problem throwing large numbers of black guys in jail without adequate due process). Nor do SF police consider street pooping a high priority. You do not get a homeless problem with effective policing and effective social services.

I really don't know what you're trying to get at with your comment. It seems to consist mostly of straw-man arguments and a lack of interest in confronting a real problem.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#113

Post by mathattack »

borgopants wrote: post #24

As a software engineer, this problem has been prevalent in my mind lately. My main question is this: how can we, as members of the technology industry, use our skills to help solve the homelessness problem? I've seen a lot of people suggesting that learning to code is a solution, which feels like a very disconnected kind of response. If you're trying to stay warm and survive from day to day, buying a computer is sure…

My sense is the issue has a lot to do with mental health and/or substance abuse. When people have severe issues, it no longer becomes an issue of laziness. The heartbreaking thing is in many cases efforts to help out makes things worse.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#114

Post by aaronem »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #97
Crito wrote: post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

That's not the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is the fact that tech companies and startups have been setting up shop in the very parts of the city where homelessness, crime and the behavior described have long been problems. That doesn't mean that these issues shouldn't be addressed, but I cannot for the life of me understand why "techies" have been flocking to areas of San Francisco where the average…

> I cannot for the life of me understand why "techies" have been flocking to areas of San Francisco where the average person would likely not feel safe the minute the sun goes down

Because the rent's cheap there! -- in a city where office space averages $500 per square foot per month [1], renting an ex-body-shop next to a porn store's going to be a lot easier on the ol' shoestring, don't you think?

[1] http://www.loopnet.com/San-Francisco_California_Market-Trend...

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#115

Post by aaronem »

ars_technician wrote: post #98
busterarm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's easy to be a libertarian when the market is treating you well. I'm really glad that my brief flirtation with libertarian ideas didn't even last into my 20s. It was more like an unfortunate stepping stone from growing up in a Limbaugh household to being the radical lefty I am today. Though I try not to identify with any of that either. At least I can understand where libertarians are coming from. It's really th…

>It's really the objectivism and the worship of Ayn Rand in privileged and powerful economic/political circles that makes me worry about the future. Be honest. How much Ayn Rand have you actually read? It's a very common strawman to pretend that Ayn Rand was promoting social darwinism. If you truly are just worried about objectivism, what is it that you have a problem with? People being shunned for harming instead of…

Be fair! The woman was such a godawful writer that it's hard to get to grips with any of her ideas for their own sake.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#116

Post by Crito »

aaronem wrote: post #111
Crito wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that whatever the situation, remembering that not all of the broader group are responsible for all of the publicly visible actions. It may be the homeless, bar hoppers, or students that are causing elevated crime in some area, but it is important to remember that not every homeless person, Friday night drinker, or student is a public menace by association. Still, if we want to know why the general public is d…

"The score is four/And next time more!" Yes, I know it's a counterfactual, but I can never resist the opportunity to toss out that old chestnut, because just about every time I do so, it meets two or three people who not only have never heard of it, but never imagined it possible.

Oh wow, I guess I'm in your two or three this time. I am not really sure what to make of that.

Clearly not all 'mob grievances' are legitimate.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#117

Post by ars_technician »

aaronem wrote: post #115
ars_technician wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's really the objectivism and the worship of Ayn Rand in privileged and powerful economic/political circles that makes me worry about the future. Be honest. How much Ayn Rand have you actually read? It's a very common strawman to pretend that Ayn Rand was promoting social darwinism. If you truly are just worried about objectivism, what is it that you have a problem with? People being shunned for harming instead of…

Be fair! The woman was such a godawful writer that it's hard to get to grips with any of her ideas for their own sake.

Do you think it's a valid criticism then to complain about Ayn Rand's ideas when you haven't been able to comprehend them?

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#118

Post by prodigal_erik »

aaronem wrote: post #60
digitalzombie wrote: post #45

I'm sure they wouldn't feel the same way if the tech industry go to shit and they end up homeless. Having a degree and/or a job in demand doesn't give them the right to look down upon the unfortunates. I believe there are a huge population of veteran homeless too. It's not like all them chose to be homeless. They're just assholes that are sitting around bitching. They're not the ones that are going to try to solve th…

Christ fed the hungry. He did not petition the Pharisaical council to establish a steering committee to look toward the establishment of a working group to consider the possibility of soliciting public input from all interested stakeholders with the eventual goal of producing a synergistic plan for improving the condition of the urban disadvantaged.

Supposedly having magical powers, he was also not limited by inadequate opt-in contributions from a minority of society.

For all of history this has been a problem too big for charity to solve.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#119

Post by fiter »

Spooky23 wrote: post #74

Funny. The Puritans are closer to the do-gooders than the general population. Puritans left Europe to form the perfect society, which they defined around their religious practice. They had all the answers and were building the city on the hill. The system worked, as long as you were an adherent. The way you solve these problems is by acting at a higher level to address root causes. Advocating for someone's "right" to…

> My family should be able to walk down the street without fear.

I think we need to be extremely cautious when we think things like this. I'm not sure everyone's fear is well-founded. It seems like we can't eliminate risk, so we need to have this reasonable debate about what we'll tolerate.

I don't believe in removing these people, but let's have anyone in the area behaving some fair rules. No physical assault sounds good. Sounds like maybe we agree? I just haven't had that physical assault problem, so to me it seems like I can walk down the street without fear.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#120

Post by busterarm »

ars_technician wrote: post #98
busterarm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's easy to be a libertarian when the market is treating you well. I'm really glad that my brief flirtation with libertarian ideas didn't even last into my 20s. It was more like an unfortunate stepping stone from growing up in a Limbaugh household to being the radical lefty I am today. Though I try not to identify with any of that either. At least I can understand where libertarians are coming from. It's really th…

>It's really the objectivism and the worship of Ayn Rand in privileged and powerful economic/political circles that makes me worry about the future. Be honest. How much Ayn Rand have you actually read? It's a very common strawman to pretend that Ayn Rand was promoting social darwinism. If you truly are just worried about objectivism, what is it that you have a problem with? People being shunned for harming instead of…

The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology and The Virtue of Selfishness.

As far as I'm concerned, her entire argument falls apart when she starts to argue that altruism is immoral. Once you remove altruism as being a virtue and argue for a society where everyone accomplishes everything solely based on their own ability, I don't see how it can be argued that you're advocating anything but social darwinism (just with a different approach).

That's not to say that there weren't some useful things that were said, but in my life it offers very little value and none of the juicy parts are original.

As for why it makes me worry: the ones who often cite her as an influence and publicly sing her praises are very often the ones who are so off the mark in understanding what she actually said.

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