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Techies Are the New Puritans

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101–110 of 150 posts

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#101
post #26

Is the relation really all that surprising to people? We programmers tend to be a fairly self-reliant bunch. Ever told someone "RTFM"? Many of us are self-motivated, and probably self-taught to at least a certain degree. You think "It's just so easy, anyone can do it if they put in the work" and as a result you see unsuccessful, downtrodden people and think they just didn't want to put in their 10.000 hours like the…

We programmers tend to be a fairly self-reliant bunch. For a very special meaning of "self-reliant". The majority of programmers I know could not produce their own food, make their own clothes, build their own shelter, treat their own illnesses. These are the fundamentals of life; how "self-reliant" can someone claim to be without being able to do these (I can't do these either, but I'm not claiming self-reliance)? W…

Of course I'm speaking in terms of our work. I'm not claiming I could kill a cow and render it nor knit a scarf nor do much more than basic first-aid. My point is that there is a certain culture of being self-reliant, which is perfectly demonstrated by the phrase RTFM. We're saying the knowledge is out there, I've figured it out, why can't you?

The truth is, we are all just standing on the shoulders of giants. One cannot truly claim to be purely a product of one's own hard-work and effort, because others helped you get there, but the idea that you can figure out anything be reading the manual, the source, by rubber-ducking, and so on relates very well to the Puritanical notion that one's place in life is earned through hard-work and thus just.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#102
post #99
post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

It's natural to be repulsed by another person who will "...spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." in front of you in public. But the key here is understanding the root cause and showing compassion towards the misguided. ...not constructing an us vs. them mentality, like Greg.

For better or worse, mental illness and/or long term substance abuse are behind many of these problems.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#103
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facts , Citizen? How reductionist of you. As to your first point, I gather San Francisco very rarely has weather so inhospitable as to render living outdoors dangerous or even particularly unpleasant. As to your second, I forget who characterized man as "where the falling angel meets the rising ape", but it's an apt enough metaphor, and we fail to encourage the former at peril of encouraging the latter.

If weather was the main factor, we would expect the homeless to flock to San Diego -- or even any of the southern states -- and not San Francisco. So there's clearly something about SF other than the weather that attract a large number of homeless people.

I grew up in Mississippi, and, believe me, brother, you don't want to be living outside come August -- it's nothing at all like San Francisco weather [1]. As for the rest, see my second point; if you expect nothing good of a man, that is precisely what you'll get.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco#Climate

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#104
This is a difficult conversation because any statement you make about the real problems facing workers in downtown can easily get you lumped into a category of people who hate the poor.

There is no question that disrespectful attitudes toward the poor and homeless in any city betrays a shocking lack of empathy about the struggles that they encounter.

The flip side is that there are real problems facing workers (tech and otherwise) in these neighborhoods and just labeling anyone who complains about them as some kind of bigot neither cures that person of any perceived bigotry, it also does not solve the core problems that people who live in those neighborhoods are facing: extreme poverty, mental illnesses, rising rent costs and more.

One of my co-workers is a woman and she is harassed daily as she walks into our office, to the point that we are moving offices as a result. The comments she endures are sickening and I've witnessed it myself. Interestingly, it happens much less when I walk down Market Street with her. But what I've noticed is that it's not the homeless who make those comments.

There are multiple groups all clustered together and it combines to create an unsettling experience for people who walk through the neighborhood. There are the homeless, who generally seem to keep to themselves and are preoccupied with staying warm, begging for food / money, etc.

Then there are the apparently mentally ill, who are likely also homeless, who can be found screaming in the street, disrobing and more. There are also obvious drug addicts - I watched a man lick a needle and inject it into an open sore on his leg in broad daylight. Then there are the loiterers, dealers and gamblers on the street. These dudes actually are the most abusive toward women. They are the ones who make inappropriate comments toward my co-worker and other women I see walking down the street. They yell at people, threaten them, and attack one another.

Combine all this with the smell of feces, urine and trash littered all over the street and you do genuinely wonder why it's so bad. I can't think of a single other city in America that I've visited that has this many problems.

Some of the core causes appear to be an impenetrable and growing wealth gap, lack of available services for those in need, lack of proactive police coverage (but please, no military-wannabe cops need apply) and ongoing gentrification. In the Tenderloin, I would almost characterize it as an active rebellion against gentrification, where long-time residents feel the need to intimidate the tech workers moving in to set up new offices, coffee shops, etc. Call it the Scooby Doo strategy.

It's a difficult situation because on the one hand I completely sympathize with those who are seeing their ability to afford living in older neighborhoods vanish before their eyes. On the other hand, tech workers are often portrayed as entitled tech hipster bros who just want a clean street to walk down on their way to the new Blue Bottle cafe.

The reality is that the actual "tech workers" who are trying to make a living also includes women, men and women with families and new immigrants to the US. Because of the money some of these folks earn, it's easy enough to demonize them when one jackass makes inappropriate comments on Facebook. But the same Valleywag bloggers who demonize the tech hipster bros also can't be seen actually doing anything to make a difference on their own and probably share the same thoughts as they walk toward a new cafe to work on their next piece, this one already forgotten.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#105
post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

I do live in SF and can confirm that we have a serious poop problem.

I remember it being a big problem in public parks too. (Perhaps more dogs than people)

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#106
post #26

Is the relation really all that surprising to people? We programmers tend to be a fairly self-reliant bunch. Ever told someone "RTFM"? Many of us are self-motivated, and probably self-taught to at least a certain degree. You think "It's just so easy, anyone can do it if they put in the work" and as a result you see unsuccessful, downtrodden people and think they just didn't want to put in their 10.000 hours like the…

We programmers tend to be a fairly self-reliant bunch. For a very special meaning of "self-reliant". The majority of programmers I know could not produce their own food, make their own clothes, build their own shelter, treat their own illnesses. These are the fundamentals of life; how "self-reliant" can someone claim to be without being able to do these (I can't do these either, but I'm not claiming self-reliance)? W…

That's not what self-relaince is. Nobody is self-reliant by that definition because even people trained for wilderness survival will die from some mundane thing without modern medicine.

Self-reliance is when you can contribute enough to society on your own to get the things required to live in return without hand-outs.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#107

As a software engineer, this problem has been prevalent in my mind lately. My main question is this: how can we, as members of the technology industry, use our skills to help solve the homelessness problem? I've seen a lot of people suggesting that learning to code is a solution, which feels like a very disconnected kind of response. If you're trying to stay warm and survive from day to day, buying a computer is sure…

The solution is to provide a strong network of support for people who are on the fringes of being homeless. Make sure people can access this while maintaining their dignity. Remove as many hardships/obstacles from their lives as possible. Find a way to allow them to take risks and fail without losing everything.

Move the political will in a direction that strives to provide affordable places to live, reduce commute times, access to child care, etc. This seems to be totally the opposite of the voting will in SF these days. Everyone is concerned with their real estate value and preventing adequate property development and criminalizing peoples' innovative (and dignified) solutions to community problems (I'm talking about people living in RVs/campers).

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#108
post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

That's not the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is the fact that tech companies and startups have been setting up shop in the very parts of the city where homelessness, crime and the behavior described have long been problems. That doesn't mean that these issues shouldn't be addressed, but I cannot for the life of me understand why "techies" have been flocking to areas of San Francisco where the average…

Eh, In Philly I used to do my grocery shopping at a Trader Joes, located directly underneath an upscale apartment building, and directly across the street from two porno theaters and a salvation army.

I don't think that it is fair to frame the situation as a problem of people not respecting some sort of informal 'urban decay quarantines'. That seems uncomfortably close to victim blaming to me (yes, the situation is not that simple as clearly the more impoverished are victims, but the well-off are nevertheless also victimized by criminal portion of the impoverished population. This is a difficult topic to discuss without appearing to lack compassion or be tone deaf)

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#109

This is a difficult conversation because any statement you make about the real problems facing workers in downtown can easily get you lumped into a category of people who hate the poor. There is no question that disrespectful attitudes toward the poor and homeless in any city betrays a shocking lack of empathy about the struggles that they encounter. The flip side is that there are real problems facing workers (tech…

Fixing homelessness in SF is a very complicated problem. Some of it has to do with anti-gentrification. Other issues are zoning laws. In addition, there is a root cause of mental health and/or substance abuse.

Here's an article on it. http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SF-struggles-to-help-e...

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#110
post #26

Is the relation really all that surprising to people? We programmers tend to be a fairly self-reliant bunch. Ever told someone "RTFM"? Many of us are self-motivated, and probably self-taught to at least a certain degree. You think "It's just so easy, anyone can do it if they put in the work" and as a result you see unsuccessful, downtrodden people and think they just didn't want to put in their 10.000 hours like the…

How much did your parents make? Did they buy you your first computer? Did they pay for you to go to college?

I'm tired of this same old implication. My parents made ~25k. They did not buy my first computer, and they did not pay for me to go to college. Is that what you are looking for?
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