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Techies Are the New Puritans

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Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#81

Post by prodigal_erik »

Crito wrote: post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

Mostly they're discreet about pissing in recessed entryways, but somebody tried to spit on me at a bus stop completely unprovoked, and there's more than one guy on Market around 3rd or 4th who would wander around and yell incoherently at pretty much any pedestrian within twenty feet. Some nights there was almost a Mad Max vibe to downtown.

They didn't merely stop the Muni/BART escalators. Those huge machines were clogged with so much shit that they failed. http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-down...

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#82

Post by mratzloff »

elwell wrote: post #67
mratzloff wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Seattle, not San Francisco. This is not my experience whatsoever in Seattle. Perhaps this is the experience in San Francisco, however. In that case, to what do you ascribe that behavior? And What is the appropriate response to it?

seattle doesn't have good homeless weather.

But yet, there are a lot of homeless people in Seattle...

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#83

Post by busterarm »

jjoonathan wrote: post #57
busterarm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see so many comments on HN, especially as of late, basically to the effect of "the poor deserve to be poor" and usually with a "they could work hard like I do" tacked on. It's been leaving a really bad taste in my mouth. I've been both rich and poor and never forget where I've been in life. A lot of people forget how much support they've had to get where they are. When you really take a good hard look at why many p…

Exactly! I come from a middle-class background. Not trust-fund level, but enough to shield me from the catch-22s of poverty. It disturbs me, when I reflect back on my life, just how many "steps to success" would have been complicated had my family been lower on the economic totem pole. It disturbs me even more how many of my peers (disproportionately many of which share the same background) don't acknowledge this fac…

> It's easy to be a libertarian when the market is treating you well.

I'm really glad that my brief flirtation with libertarian ideas didn't even last into my 20s. It was more like an unfortunate stepping stone from growing up in a Limbaugh household to being the radical lefty I am today. Though I try not to identify with any of that either.

At least I can understand where libertarians are coming from. It's really the objectivism and the worship of Ayn Rand in privileged and powerful economic/political circles that makes me worry about the future.

Things are going well when there's a reasonably fair balance between rich/powerful and poor/powerless, especially with respect to rule of law. There won't always be justice but there needs to be a reasonable idea of it. It feels like lately that is slipping away and that such a state of affairs is more common historically -- the culture of (potential) prosperity that our society worked hard for after WWII is gone.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#84

Post by wdewind »

jarrett wrote: post #73
Crito wrote: post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

First, we need to distinguish between homelessness and poverty on the one hand, and crime on the other. The two may overlap for some individuals (just as wealth and crime overlap for some), but they're by no means synonymous. The legitimate complaints about the homeless in SF seem to always revolve around criminal acts: Assault and vandalism, mostly. (The less legitimate complaints are usually a variant on "I shouldn…

Even the ones who do commit assault and vandalism are deserving of compassion, perhaps even more so.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#85

Post by DerpDerpDerp »

basseq wrote: post #66
DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the problem of lock-out: how do you contribute usefully to society without some baseline to work from, and where your day-to-day activities are forced to be about the most basic level of survival?

"...where your day-to-day activities are forced to be about the most basic level of survival?" Isn't the purpose of so-called "subsidization" to avoid this? (Not that it necessarily works in practice.)

There really aren't many homeless programs that subsidize living for a period where you can get back on your feet, in such a way as to not require that you stand in line for hours every day, so you can focus on finding a job, or similar.

Many of them (eg, food stamps) cut benefits when you're unemployed homeless, and focus instead on at-risk employed people.

Many kitchens require that you show up every day and spend large amounts of time on travel to-and-from, as well as waiting in line.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#86

Post by gaius »

notahacker wrote: post #63
gaius wrote: post #14

Conservatism? Reagan? Utter nonsense. Around the time of Reagan, the Soviet Empire was still shipping people like that to the gulags. North Korea still does, so Pyongyang can be pristine. It's "progressives", not right-wingers, who are the problem here.

Do you believe the Silicon Valley professionals the article criticises for expressing their disgust with the homeless are more likely to be big advocates of "self reliance" and "small government", or Marxist totalitarians?

I think they would accurately be described as Champagne Socialists or if you prefer Limousine Liberals. Almost literally with their private luxury Google buses.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#87

Post by Segmentation »

borgopants wrote: post #24

As a software engineer, this problem has been prevalent in my mind lately. My main question is this: how can we, as members of the technology industry, use our skills to help solve the homelessness problem? I've seen a lot of people suggesting that learning to code is a solution, which feels like a very disconnected kind of response. If you're trying to stay warm and survive from day to day, buying a computer is sure…

I would like say guaranteed income law (similar to basic income of Alaska) would solve homelessness, but only in cities and towns that are affordable to rent and live in. Even with a guaranteed income the homeless of San Francisco would not be able to afford rent.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#88

Post by spikels »

Ideology can make you blind to problems obvious to those with an open mind. We clearly have a serious problems with homelessness in SF - just ask anyone from out of town. And despite the best intentions of many (and the self-interest of some) and the dedication of tons of resources the problem has only gotten worse. Blaming techies or conservatives is frankly ridiculous. Everyone should be ashamed.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#89

Post by alexmat »

Crito wrote: post #48
mratzloff wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Seattle, not San Francisco. This is not my experience whatsoever in Seattle. Perhaps this is the experience in San Francisco, however. In that case, to what do you ascribe that behavior? And What is the appropriate response to it?

I also currently live in Seattle. My experience with the homeless in Seattle is characterized best as a lack of experience with the homeless in Seattle. They seem to rarely bother people, I have never been harassed by them. If there really is a stark difference in behavior, I don't know what to ascribe that to.

The "Seattle Chill" is embraced by even our homeless it seems.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#90

Post by DerpDerpDerp »

aaronem wrote: post #13
DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the problem of lock-out: how do you contribute usefully to society without some baseline to work from, and where your day-to-day activities are forced to be about the most basic level of survival?

Well, just off the top of my head, something like a new WPA seems like it'd be a decent start, considering the infrastructure maintenance problems I keep hearing about. Is that "workfare"? I've heard "workfare" is bad, although again I'm not really sure why.

I have no objections to WPA-style programs, and think that likely would be a good solution. Heck, it worked once before.

The problem is that in addition to having let our infrastructure decay, we've let our social infrastructure decay.

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