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Techies Are the New Puritans

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Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#31

Post by Crito »

cynicalkane wrote: post #23
Crito wrote: post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

Add "verbal and sexual harassment of women in the street" to that list.

Yes, some of these incidents even get national coverage (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/naked-subway-man-vi...).

I can't speak to whether these sort of incidents get an exaggerated or unfair amount of coverage, or if these really are common problems. Of course either way, these sort of incidents/articles surely shape public perception; I don't think we can make this as simple as "Techies are nouveau riche who like to kick 'em when they're down".

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#32

Post by busterarm »

mratzloff wrote: post #5

Techies like to think of themselves as different from the very wealthy, but many of our attitudes are very similar and most techies aspire to join their ranks. There's a persistent belief in common with the wealthy that we have earned, solely through our hard work and perseverance, our position in society. Never mind the advantages we had along the way.

I see so many comments on HN, especially as of late, basically to the effect of "the poor deserve to be poor" and usually with a "they could work hard like I do" tacked on. It's been leaving a really bad taste in my mouth. I've been both rich and poor and never forget where I've been in life.

A lot of people forget how much support they've had to get where they are. When you really take a good hard look at why many poor people are in the situations they're in, you see a total absence of a support network around them.

Working hard to get somewhere without any support around me is the single most frustrating thing I've had to deal with. It's easy to fail and often I have.

I have cousins with trust funds and millions of dollars to back up the pursuit of their dreams. I'm not really envious, but I know that I would be much further along towards my goals if I didn't have to work my ass off to get to somewhere in life where I can even afford to take a risk. Then it can take years to recover from failure.

Phrases I never expected to become part of my vocabulary like "class struggle" are starting to. I grew up in a poor, but conservative family!

At least not all of us think in the way you described, but a significant number sure do.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#33

Post by larrys »

lbrandy wrote: post #12
mratzloff wrote: post #5

Techies like to think of themselves as different from the very wealthy, but many of our attitudes are very similar and most techies aspire to join their ranks. There's a persistent belief in common with the wealthy that we have earned, solely through our hard work and perseverance, our position in society. Never mind the advantages we had along the way.

Your comment is good and worth reading, but your opening line is unfortunate especially in light of what happened in the 15 minutes following. Just remove that line. I won't tell anyone.

With respect to the line that was removed, if anyone is curious, it had said something like "I suspect this is why it didn't get many upvotes". Or similar iirc.

But to my actual point.

Upvotes or downvotes on HN vary from the time of day to the way the headline is written (which will attract different groups of "techies" or whatever) and possibly the age group of the people who decide to take notice. Not to mention that there are non techies who read HN and so forth.

I don't think you can make a statement, as is often done, trying to characterize a typical HN reader or poster. Because nobody is taking a poll of the entire group only the group at a snapshot in time and only then based on something that attracted that particular group to make comments and/or vote.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#34

Post by k_kelly »

Cities that don't care for their homeless tend not to have a homeless problem.

SF actually has relatively great care for homeless people compared to the majority of the US. Therefore a lot more homeless end up there.

The homeless problem is striking because it's almost entirely artificial. If SF didn't care for it's homeless, and didn't rent control areas to allow affordable housing it would probably be like midtown manhattan. That's boring to a lot of residents and unfortunate for the homeless, but where's the tax money coming from to allow the status quo to continue?

No one seems to be debating the value of social programs, but what's the advantage of the tenderloin? It's been a decaying mess for generations when it could be a profitable, vibrant part of the city which would be beneficial for wealthy and poor alike.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#35

Post by tehwalrus »

Comments like this are a bit snobbish[1], but they're hardly puritanical.

America doesn't need "new puritans", it is already full of religious extremists who think that their personal moral code must be implemented in law for everyone to follow. The Puritans founded pre-USA America, and they haven't gone anywhere.

[1] I'm not saying what they said wasn't wrong; it was. I'm just saying it isn't "puritanism".

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#36

Post by EliRivers »

borgopants wrote: post #24

As a software engineer, this problem has been prevalent in my mind lately. My main question is this: how can we, as members of the technology industry, use our skills to help solve the homelessness problem? I've seen a lot of people suggesting that learning to code is a solution, which feels like a very disconnected kind of response. If you're trying to stay warm and survive from day to day, buying a computer is sure…

Hassle your political representatives, educate the public as to why so many of them are in effect turkeys voting for Christmas, go digging and expose the ways the small citizen is relentlessly screwed over by the rich and powerful (and then publicise it, in a way Joe Shmoe can get on board with), volunteer with local homeless charities, turn up at regional council meetings and loudly ask them again and again and again what they're doing to help these people rather than just move then on, interrupt when you hear people being dismissive or stating glibly "they should just learn to code".

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#37

Post by masterleep »

Having to dodge shit and vomit in the alleys of San Francisco is disgusting. It is as simple as that.

One would think that with the enormous resources devoted to the poor, we could at least expect not to have to step on shit. But one would be wrong, due to the incredible inefficiency and corruption of our one party state.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#38

Post by mratzloff »

Crito wrote: post #17

I suppose the elephant in the room is whether or not 'techies' are repulsed by the homeless because accusations like "...[they] spit, urinate, taunt you, sell drugs, get rowdy..." have a basis in reality. I don't live in SF, so I can only go off what I hear (from the accused 'techies', so I'm only getting one side of the propaganda here..), but what I have heard is that 1) the homeless really seem to love SF, preferr…

I live in Seattle, not San Francisco. This is not my experience whatsoever in Seattle. Perhaps this is the experience in San Francisco, however.

In that case, to what do you ascribe that behavior?

And

What is the appropriate response to it?

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#39

Post by potatolicious »

thenerdfiles wrote: post #15
potatolicious wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Non-technologists fear that technologists have lost their humanity, and thus incur an air of arrogance." From the general views commonly espoused on this forum and elsewhere, this seems like a legitimate fear. I do not believe it's fair to color these people as luddites or uninformed.

I agree that it's not fair, in principle. However, we must mention that the quality of education in the U.S. implies that a non-negligible population is at least underinformed*. We should not ignore the historical and political context here: Democracy as implemented by the U.S., given the motivations of market capitalism, has not been working; and this discussion may very well be the result of that failure.

I'm not sure how the quality of education relates. A large portion of the population is underinformed about technology, sure, but I don't think this is what we're talking about?

Your original post mentioned that we must consciously add humanism to what we do, and non-technologists fear that we have lost our humanity.

My point is that this fear is not unjustified, considering how so many of us (evidently, based on discussions that happen around here) look down upon non-technologists and will readily throw them to the wolves.

Regardless of one's fear of technology (whether for good reason or for lack of it), the fear of technologists is IMO rational based on my own observations of people in the industry.

tl;dr: From watching HN discussions, some of us are fucking scary. I fear them.

Re: Techies Are the New Puritans

#40

Post by SDGT »

borgopants wrote: post #24

As a software engineer, this problem has been prevalent in my mind lately. My main question is this: how can we, as members of the technology industry, use our skills to help solve the homelessness problem? I've seen a lot of people suggesting that learning to code is a solution, which feels like a very disconnected kind of response. If you're trying to stay warm and survive from day to day, buying a computer is sure…

If a homeless individual can approach me in an honest, respectful manner, I'd be more inclined to help.

This has not yet been the case. I prefer to reward civility with civility.

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