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Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

businessweek.com

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Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#21

Post by dchest »

ilyak wrote: post #16
presto10 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you so obviously are more interested in spreading libel and doubt about those who put forward critique of Russian corruption, than to actually analyze the subject matter in a civilized manner. If you really care about Russia, start acting better than those who libel Russia. That means, don't libel back.

What I'm interested in is telling some truth about what's really happening. I guess that's just not interesting enough. Truth is overrated.

Your "truth" is based on what, you being Russian? "I will be in Samara" in your only argument. You didn't provide any data on furniture sales, no references to the "fact" that IKEA put local stores/factories out of business.

Well, I'm Russian too, and your comments are totally wrong. I can say my arguments after I hear yours.

Finally, cursing on HN (even in Russian) doesn't make you sound good.

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#22

Post by praptak »

ilyak wrote: post #17
Confusion wrote: post #13

There was an article in one of our national newspapers this weekend that shows how deep the corruption goes. A huge investment company, with 4 billion in assets, was unwilling to pay up and was driven out of business. Several government officials committed fraud to the extent of 290 million dollars (seizing taxes the company paid to the Russian government) and despite sending different parts of the government piles o…

Well, you know why they still do business here? The answer is M O N E Y. So, they bribe to make it happen, thus feeding the corruption loop, and don't see any problem with that! Until they do. Then, they brag the "ikea generation" crap in newspapers.

What you described is unethical but quite a rational strategy in a corrupt political system. Pay up as long as the bribes are tolerable, use political leverage otherwise. Add a risk bonus (and bribe bonus) to your prices.

That is exactly something to be expected from a corporation. You don't expect corporations to take the moral high ground and heal Russia's political system at the expense of their own profits?

With respect to corruption there's bad news and good news. The bad news is that only Russian people can do something about it. The good news is that Russian people can do something about it.

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#23

Post by ilyak »

dchest wrote: post #21
ilyak wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm interested in is telling some truth about what's really happening. I guess that's just not interesting enough. Truth is overrated.

Your "truth" is based on what, you being Russian? "I will be in Samara" in your only argument. You didn't provide any data on furniture sales, no references to the "fact" that IKEA put local stores/factories out of business. Well, I'm Russian too, and your comments are totally wrong. I can say my arguments after I hear yours. Finally, cursing on HN (even in Russian) doesn't make you sound good.

Well, did the article provide any data on how much are they expected to bribe, in $, and how good their mall building is? No, instead we've seen some bashing. It's okay to bash, it's okay for me to troll.

Face with it: IKEA drains money from the country (is that called investments) and also their offerings are crap. Maybe it's just my experience; Тёмочка praises them. However, my experience is that you should only go there for tasty фрикадельки.

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#24

Post by Dauntless »

rjurney wrote: post #9
ilyak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as of their "investments". Those "investments" just build huge malls that sap away money and life from small busines and local furniture making factories, instead introducing a wave of cheap Chinese crap. Why care? Such investments aren't life-savers for anything.

Except - traditional Russian retailers are terrible compared to Ikea. They do represent a real improvement.

Not only that, but it creates jobs, helps the economy by supporting the major logging industry in Russia (a sustainable industry if done right) and improves the lifestyles of normal Russians, among other...

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#25

Post by ilyak »

Dauntless wrote: post #24
rjurney wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except - traditional Russian retailers are terrible compared to Ikea. They do represent a real improvement.

Not only that, but it creates jobs, helps the economy by supporting the major logging industry in Russia (a sustainable industry if done right) and improves the lifestyles of normal Russians, among other...

It does. But I don't think they deserve some special rights because of that or because of their size; that is, a right to use corruption (when trying to do something questionable) and blame corruption (when it gets in their way) at one time.

As for improving the lifestyles, you'll soon realise that cheap chinese wares don't improve the lifestyles that much. Cheap, but ugly and non-durable.

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#26

Post by cousin_it »

ilyak wrote: post #4

Ну и пусть пиздуют со своим китайским барахлом ломающимся. Seriously: you want to have a business in the country, a profitable and fast-growing one, yet you have complaints about the process. I guess, either shove it or leave. In Moscow, there was an accident when an aquapark full of people collapsed due to bad engineering and construction, too. So, maybe those delays aren't just corruption? Also: In South Korea, the…

Downmodded for profanity. I'm another Russian here, and would rather the site stayed civil.

Back on topic, I'm inclined to take the article on face value even though it doesn't provide much evidence, because the situation as described doesn't sound at all unusual. Whether IKEA is a good or bad company is utterly irrelevant to the discussion of bribery.

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#27

Post by ilyak »

praptak wrote: post #22
ilyak wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you know why they still do business here? The answer is M O N E Y. So, they bribe to make it happen, thus feeding the corruption loop, and don't see any problem with that! Until they do. Then, they brag the "ikea generation" crap in newspapers.

What you described is unethical but quite a rational strategy in a corrupt political system. Pay up as long as the bribes are tolerable, use political leverage otherwise. Add a risk bonus (and bribe bonus) to your prices. That is exactly something to be expected from a corporation. You don't expect corporations to take the moral high ground and heal Russia's political system at the expense of their own profits? With…

If it's just corporate-vs-political games, why are there on HN?

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#28

Post by presto10 »

ilyak wrote: post #25
Dauntless wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but it creates jobs, helps the economy by supporting the major logging industry in Russia (a sustainable industry if done right) and improves the lifestyles of normal Russians, among other...

It does. But I don't think they deserve some special rights because of that or because of their size; that is, a right to use corruption (when trying to do something questionable) and blame corruption (when it gets in their way) at one time. As for improving the lifestyles, you'll soon realise that cheap chinese wares don't improve the lifestyles that much. Cheap, but ugly and non-durable.

Are you claiming that Ikea is using corruption (bribing someone) in Russia? On what grounds?

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#29

Post by presto10 »

ilyak wrote: post #12
rjurney wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except - traditional Russian retailers are terrible compared to Ikea. They do represent a real improvement.

However, traditional Russian furniture is fine compared to Ikea's chinese crap. Crap's cheaper, tho. I know that on the basis of having some. As for retailers: if it wouldn't be an IKEA mall, it would be some other kind of mall, it's not like there would be much difference.

So when you can't win the actual argument, you will slander Ikea's products? Maybe I'm feeding the trolls here.

Re: Why IKEA Is Fed Up with Russia

#30

Post by sho »

ilyak wrote: post #23
dchest wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "truth" is based on what, you being Russian? "I will be in Samara" in your only argument. You didn't provide any data on furniture sales, no references to the "fact" that IKEA put local stores/factories out of business. Well, I'm Russian too, and your comments are totally wrong. I can say my arguments after I hear yours. Finally, cursing on HN (even in Russian) doesn't make you sound good.

Well, did the article provide any data on how much are they expected to bribe, in $, and how good their mall building is? No, instead we've seen some bashing. It's okay to bash, it's okay for me to troll. Face with it: IKEA drains money from the country (is that called investments) and also their offerings are crap. Maybe it's just my experience; Тёмочка praises them. However, my experience is that you should only go…

"Face it: IKEA drains money from the country"

This is a common misconception and almost certainly wrong; you may need to brush up on your knowledge of economic theory if you harbour such fallacies. Perhaps start with comparative advantage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

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