Live data from Hacker News

CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

itsecurityguru.org

11–20 of 86 posts

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#11
The headline attached to this submission is sensationalist and misleading. GCHQ did not force CertiVox to shut down PrivateSky. CertiVox decided to close PrivateSky after they were served with a notice issued under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) which required that they hand over the key(s) required to decrypt one (or more) of their customer's data.

The underlying legislation can be found here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/contents

The relevant section is 49 but sections 53 (Failure to comply with a notice) and 54 (Tipping off) are also of particular interest.

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#12
post #6
post #4

There are some details of the legislation in question here[1]. It allows the UK to monitor "in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom" which seems a little broad! It would be interesting to know if this warrant targeted all users or a specific subset? I wonder how they decide whether to issue a warrant or just break into the site in question. A warrant could imply that they are unable to attac…

"In the name of the People, shut down this facility!" Well, that sounds familiar. It seems the more governments change over the decades, the more they stay the same.

In a case of "Just because you're paranoid Don't mean they're not after you" Harold Wilson, who was paranoid about lots of things but particularly being bugged by MI5, was in No 10 at a time when there were bugs in cabinet room and PM's study - whether the bugs were actually used or not isn't known:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson_conspiracy_theori...

Edit: If anyone is interested in this stuff, I can strongly recommend Dominic Sandbrook's histories of the UK in the 60s and 70s:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dominic-Sandbrook/e/B001HCWSSW/ref=n...

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#13
post #4

There are some details of the legislation in question here[1]. It allows the UK to monitor "in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom" which seems a little broad! It would be interesting to know if this warrant targeted all users or a specific subset? I wonder how they decide whether to issue a warrant or just break into the site in question. A warrant could imply that they are unable to attac…

A warrant could imply that they are unable to attack the provider

This is the institution which allowed U-boats to sink British ships so not to even hint that the ENIGMA cipher was cracked. I'm sure they're utterly incompetent at keeping secrets, and anyone on the internet can deduce their most critical SIGINT capabilities simply by observing how they deal with civil warrants in minor cases.

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#15

The headline attached to this submission is sensationalist and misleading. GCHQ did not force CertiVox to shut down PrivateSky. CertiVox decided to close PrivateSky after they were served with a notice issued under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) which required that they hand over the key(s) required to decrypt one (or more) of their customer's data. The underlying legislation can be f…

I disagree. The headline is reasonable because you can be put in a position in which you're not forced to do something, but it's extremely unreasonable not to do that thing. They weren't forced to close down per se, but their other options were extremely infeasible or reprehensible.

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#16
post #3

Wow, shows a lot of integrity closing the product instead of still keeping it up in a compromised state to comply with the warrant. We've seen some other providers here in the US even changed functionality to retain keys used in web clients of secure email at the behest of government orders. This does mean that the UK is now on the list, along with the US, of places where no credible crypto startup is possible, thoug…

I think most people completely missed the part of Snowden leaks that directly said that GCHQ is not any better than NSA.

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#17
"or spend £500,000 building a backdoor into the system"

A nice round number... They had good motive to protect their customers and close the service. Why start talking about this kind of ridiculous development costs, that sound like it got pulled out of the air?

At least I'd be more sympathetic, if they sticked to the facts. I could even support their cause by posting and tweeting that this is terrible. Now I just feel, that cut the BS already, even they apparently were treated wrong and intimidated to shut down their business.

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#18

The headline attached to this submission is sensationalist and misleading. GCHQ did not force CertiVox to shut down PrivateSky. CertiVox decided to close PrivateSky after they were served with a notice issued under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) which required that they hand over the key(s) required to decrypt one (or more) of their customer's data. The underlying legislation can be f…

I disagree. The headline is reasonable because you can be put in a position in which you're not forced to do something, but it's extremely unreasonable not to do that thing. They weren't forced to close down per se, but their other options were extremely infeasible or reprehensible.

Arguably it is a problem they created by the architecture they chose, in which this is a fatal flaw of design that was almost certainly something that could be anticipated.

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#19

The headline attached to this submission is sensationalist and misleading. GCHQ did not force CertiVox to shut down PrivateSky. CertiVox decided to close PrivateSky after they were served with a notice issued under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) which required that they hand over the key(s) required to decrypt one (or more) of their customer's data. The underlying legislation can be f…

That doesn't appear to be the whole story. The claim to have needed to re-engineer their system to have access to keys, effectively making it a different service than it had been. And that means that a demand for keys can effectively make services where users' key are not accessible impermissible.

Re: CertiVox confirms it withdrew PrivateSky after GCHQ issued warrant

#20

"or spend £500,000 building a backdoor into the system" A nice round number... They had good motive to protect their customers and close the service. Why start talking about this kind of ridiculous development costs, that sound like it got pulled out of the air? At least I'd be more sympathetic, if they sticked to the facts. I could even support their cause by posting and tweeting that this is terrible. Now I just fe…

This is Brian, the CEO. Yea, it was a nice round number out of the air. But it probably wasn't far off the mark.

For all the other comments, below is a blog post on the matter which is going to go live shortly:

With the story about our PrivateSky takedown now public, I want to take the opportunity to clarify a few points in various articles that have appeared since yesterday covering the story.

The headline strongly infers our friends at GCHQ “forced” us to take PrivateSky down. That’s hogwash. In fact, the headline contradicts the article, which becomes clear as you read it.

Secondly, a very important point wasn’t printed. GCHQ couldn’t, by law, request a blanket back door on the system. There are a very rigid set of controls that mean only specific individuals can come under surveillance. The legal request for such surveillance has a due process that must be stridently followed. At no time did I or anyone at CertiVox talk about CertiVox in relation to any RIPA warrant, only the generic process by which these warrants are served.

By saying “our friends at GCHQ”, there is no facetiousness intended. The team at CertiVox have the upmost respect for the folks we interacted with at GCHQ. They took the due process I outlined in the previous point very seriously. We found that as an organisation, and every individual involved there, were as worried about a breach of public trust as much as we are.

Finally, I believe very strongly the following should be a larger part of the public discourse of these subjects. What everyone needs to understand is that every developed democracy in the world, even where privacy rights are enshrined to the maximum efficacy by statute, has laws on the books that mandate that Internet Service Providers have facilities to work with law enforcement for the purposes of legal intercept, to enforce public safety and security.

Being L.I. capable is a very important set features and functions that must be in place for any credible, commercial service on the Internet. In endeavouring to make PrivateSky as secure as possible, we overlooked this critical requirement when we built PrivateSky.

When CertiVox positioned PrivateSky as the easiest to use and most secure encrypted messaging service, we really had two significant points of differentiation. First, even though we held the root encryption keys to the system, it was architected in such as way that it would have been all but impossible for our internal staff to snoop on our customer’s communications, or for the service to leak any of our customer’s data. Secondly, our possession of the root keys, and our use of identity based encryption, made the system incredibly easy to use. For the user, there were no private or public keys to manage, every workflow was handled for the user in an easy to grasp pure HTML5 interface, no hardware or software required, just an HTML5 browser.

We boxed ourselves into a feature set and market position that when called upon to comply with legal statues, we simply had no alternative but to shut the service down. We built it, but we couldn’t host it.

Why? Because as you can probably surmise, there is an inherent impedance mismatch between being able to host a commercial communications service that gives the upmost in privacy to its users, against any breach, whilst at the same time being able to operate safely within the confines of the law as it is on the books in most countries on the planet.

Is this wrong? Actually, I don’t think it is. This may be an unpopular viewpoint, but I cannot argue against having a well regulated legal intercept function as being necessary to have in place for a society that prizes law and order and the safety of its citizens. This is speaking as someone who lived in NYC during 9/11.

In summary, it’s the abuse of the communications interception in the Snowden revelations that has everyone up in arms, as so it should. But that’s not what happened with PrivateSky.

What is our next move?

Watch this space.

Post reply on HN