Why was this secret? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why was this secret?

#171

Post by grey-area » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 9:44 AM UTC

pavelrub wrote: post #162

grellas wrote: post #101

Why was her diary secret? Well, because she wanted it so. And that should be enough. When it comes to information that any given person regards as intimate about oneself, that should always be enough. It doesn't matter that someone else might peruse that information and say, "there is nothing special here." Why? Because it is not that person's judgment to make. There may be nothing special about my exact bank balance…

You are misinterpreting the post. Derek isn't claiming that your decisions about what to keep private shouldn't be respected, but rather that you - the person who wishes to keep things private - might benefit from thinking twice about what is it you are actually afraid of, and whether it is all rational. Claiming that her diary was secret because "she wanted to" is really beside the point. People constantly "want" ma…

People constantly "want" many things which are harmful to them.

In this case, Derek and his friend appear to want something which is harmful to them (almost completely transparency in all their activities, to the extent of revealing a private diary on request). People are just pointing out why this is harmful, and why he should think twice before proclaiming that 'secrets are just facts'.

You can't ever take back having released a lot of information into the public domain - for example a diary would reveal your location on almost every day of your life - very useful to catch you out on some technicality on tax or some other issue. People are already (in my opinion) giving out too much info, sometimes deliberately (Facebook), sometimes without their knowledge (Tempora).

I actually agree with his point about code and ideas (that it's better to share than not), but think it is completely wrongheaded and downright dangerous to extend that as far as a private diary of thoughts and events.

Derek isn't claiming that your decisions about what to keep private shouldn't be respected, but rather that you - the person who wishes to keep things private - might benefit from thinking twice about what is it you are actually afraid of, and whether it is all rational.

It is completely rational to believe that a growing lack of privacy is a serious problem in our society, and would undermine our freedom from government or corporate interference and manipulation on every level of our lives. You don't have to look far for examples of gross misuse of personal data.

Re: Why was this secret?

#172

Post by nadam » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 9:48 AM UTC

Regarding source code in a business context the question is: What is your competitive advantage? Well, as an experienced software developer who is not nearly as experienced in other things, sometimes my only chance to have competitive advantage is private source code. You may argue that I do not even have that competitive advantage, but then why bother competing in any market at all?

Re: Why was this secret?

#173

Post by nodata » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 9:54 AM UTC

bambax wrote: post #169

nodata wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses have a need for secrets, as grellas explains. Whether or not you call the need "a right" or refer to the secrets as "privacy" isn't really important.

Businesses may have "needs" but just because they do doesn't mean we should help them meet them. It may be to the benefit of the public (made of humans) that businesses have no secrets or that their secrets can be investigated. It's of utmost importance that we never refer to businesses' needs as rights.

But a "right" is the legal entitlement to do something, as well as a moral entitlement.

Re: Why was this secret?

#174

Post by rmc » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 9:54 AM UTC

“I’m not worried about someone finding out my secrets, because secrets are just facts, right? So if someone is going through my private things, for example, and gets upset about what they find, then that’s their problem, not mine!”

Sure, it's their problem. But they might have power over you. If some intolerant family members discover you're gay, you might get kicked out of the house. If parents discover their child is trans, they might try to "beat it out of them". An abusive husband might find where his wife has run off to and "finish the job".

But, hey, they're problem! right?

Re: Why was this secret?

#175

Post by PeterisP » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 10:10 AM UTC

Qantourisc wrote: post #4

"So if someone is going through my private things, for example, and gets upset about what they find, then that’s their problem, not mine!” Must agree... until someone makes it your problem, by social standards, laws, or anything else they can use to make your life harder.

Well then, the most important problem that needs fixing is those social standards and laws which cause harm without any acceptable reason.

Re: Why was this secret?

#176

Post by PeterisP » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 10:14 AM UTC

lukeqsee wrote: post #60

When you live in a society where anything you do or say (or accidentally appear to have said or did) will be held against you, privacy matters. It matters so much you don't log-in to online messaging services because you're wary of SSL MitM attacks or send non-encrypted emails from that network or do a litany of other "normal" things. It definitely means you aren't 100% open like Sivers is suggesting. How do I know t…

It's also related the other way - if everything you do or say is public, it won't be held against you. Noone cares about your sexual kinks or comic tastes, if everyone knows about the even weirder issues of the president and all the congressmen.

Re: Why was this secret?

#177

Post by toxik » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 10:21 AM UTC

bambax wrote: post #164

grellas wrote: post #101

Why was her diary secret? Well, because she wanted it so. And that should be enough. When it comes to information that any given person regards as intimate about oneself, that should always be enough. It doesn't matter that someone else might peruse that information and say, "there is nothing special here." Why? Because it is not that person's judgment to make. There may be nothing special about my exact bank balance…

If you write down your secrets on a diary, or tell some of your friends about it, or God forbid! write it up on Facebook, then you're asking for trouble (or maybe you want those "secrets" to not stay secret forever). My secrets are in my head, I don't talk about them to anyone, I don't write them down. They will die with me. Of course that doesn't work for a business. But a business is NOT a person, so it's disingenu…

We write things down for a number of reasons. Are you really arguing that a person "is asking for it" just for writing it down?

Re: Why was this secret?

#178

Post by PeterisP » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 10:23 AM UTC

foobarqux wrote: post #84

blah32497 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because you're an average Joe. And I think this article is written targeting the average Joe. Everyone is getting off on tangents about how the gov't is going to go fascist and that privacy is the best thing in the world. He isn't arguing that privacy is inherently bad, or you should never ever have secrets. Yeah, if your trying to overthrow an fascist regime, it makes sense to have secrets. But again, that'…

If you're a black person what happens to MLK-type figures matters to you, even if you're not them. You don't get it: You can't have democracy in a surveillance state.

You definitely can have democracy in a transparent state - what happens to MLK type figures is not related to what potential oppressors know about MLK (they already knew all they needed to) but instead what they're allowed to do to restrict MLK.

Re: Why was this secret?

#179

Post by PeterisP » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 10:32 AM UTC

droopybuns wrote: post #147

This is bullshit naievete. Move the clock back 40 years on the romance section. Imagine it references homosexuality, and ask yourself if the author's theme of "what's the big deal" is appropriate. OP is under the mistaken belief that everyone else shares their morals and mores. They have plenty of time to be rudely defenstrated. This is the danger of confusing exhibitionism with free-spiritedness. It is a first-princ…

"Keeping it a secret" is a non-solution that killed Alan Turing.

Telling the intolerants to suck it up, in particular by openly leaving the closet, was the solution that worked to solve the problem.

Re: Why was this secret?

#180

Post by Ygg2 » Thu, Dec 12, 2013, 10:40 AM UTC

matz1 wrote: post #130

wonderzombie wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't have any of that to worry about -- no regrets, no past mistakes -- that's great for you. That might be why the thought of someone having access to your "secrets" seems so contrived. But what about someone with mental health problems? Depression or anxiety? A past drug addiction, or merely alcoholism? A criminal record? How about something as "innocuous" as a drunken one night stand while in a committed r…

In an open society, I would expect society people view toward this issue will change as well. If everybody know my things and I know everybody things, hopefully stigma or negative impact an toward the issue mentioned will be less.

There can never be something such as truly open society, not in the foreseeable future.

As truth becomes the norm, the value of lies becomes greater. If you lie constantly your lies have less value, than if you tell truth but lie about important facts.

IMO Truly open society can only be established if faking a signal is impossible. Which I doubt it will ever be.