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Ancient Indian Texts

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Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#11

Post by shas3 »

pflats wrote: post #6

If you take a look at the math subsection ( https://sites.google.com/site/ancientbharat/math ) be aware that Brahmagupta was a beast of a mathematician. His sucessors, the two Bhaskaras, were ridiculously good as well. Their names aren't nearly as big as any of the European mathematicians you know, but they were powerhouses of math during Europe's dark ages. Brahmagupta was pretty much the first recorded dude to use…

The 'problem' with Indian math was the general aversion (or ignorance) of the importance of the method of proof. The more well known works of Greek mathematics were great in emphasizing the importance of the concept of mathematical proof. Yet, Greek mathematics, with the exception of Archimedes and Diophantus had an aversion for arithmetic (especially the concept of infinity and infinitesimals) and algebra and an over-reliance on geometry[1]. Engaging in a bit of counter-factuals, if either of the following had happened: (1) Indians picking up on the method of proof, (2) Greeks adopting more arithmetic and algebra, history of mathematics may have looked significantly different than today.

However, the OP link has a ton of apologist/revisionist history with insufficient archaeological evidence mixed in with a little bit of the good stuff. Example: references to vastu shastra, which is astrological woo.

[1] Eric Temple Bell, 'The Development of Mathematics,' Dover, 1992.

Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#12

Post by pflats »

shas3 wrote: post #11
pflats wrote: post #6

If you take a look at the math subsection ( https://sites.google.com/site/ancientbharat/math ) be aware that Brahmagupta was a beast of a mathematician. His sucessors, the two Bhaskaras, were ridiculously good as well. Their names aren't nearly as big as any of the European mathematicians you know, but they were powerhouses of math during Europe's dark ages. Brahmagupta was pretty much the first recorded dude to use…

The 'problem' with Indian math was the general aversion (or ignorance) of the importance of the method of proof. The more well known works of Greek mathematics were great in emphasizing the importance of the concept of mathematical proof. Yet, Greek mathematics, with the exception of Archimedes and Diophantus had an aversion for arithmetic (especially the concept of infinity and infinitesimals) and algebra and an ove…

Based on my reading, I couldn't agree more with your post. Hence my note about Bhaskara II's work being "rough"; I was trying to write for a lay audience.

I too find myself wondering what the world would be like if there were more crossover between the early mathematical cultures. A few pages of Fibonacci's Liber Abaci pretty much transformed European math.

I saw a couple criticisms of the page's overall tone; I wanted to direct people to the stuff I knew was pretty good. I don't know enough about things like the vastu shastra, but I've studied my math history pretty extensively and am more than happy to comment on that.

Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#13

Post by tokenadult »

The dates of ancient texts from India are claimed over a whole wide range. There is as much as 2,000 years of divergence between the earliest speculative date and absolutely attested known date for the Vedas, for example. A good outline of the issues in historiography of India can be found in Mathematics in India by Kim Plofker[1], who was trained both as a mathematician and Sanskrit scholar. Not always knowing when a particular text was composed has a lot of influence on knowing or not knowing which ideas appeared in what era in the development of science and mathematics in India.

(One difference between India and either China or the near east is that the writing materials used in India, often plaited sheets of palm leaves, were much less durable than the silk sheets or bamboo slats used in China, or the fired clay tablets or papyrus sheets or parchment hides used in the near east. So many of the earliest writings from India have perished, while remarkably old writings still exist from either China or Sumer.)

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-India-Kim-Plofker/dp/06911...

Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#14

Post by abecedarius »

shas3 wrote: post #11
pflats wrote: post #6

If you take a look at the math subsection ( https://sites.google.com/site/ancientbharat/math ) be aware that Brahmagupta was a beast of a mathematician. His sucessors, the two Bhaskaras, were ridiculously good as well. Their names aren't nearly as big as any of the European mathematicians you know, but they were powerhouses of math during Europe's dark ages. Brahmagupta was pretty much the first recorded dude to use…

The 'problem' with Indian math was the general aversion (or ignorance) of the importance of the method of proof. The more well known works of Greek mathematics were great in emphasizing the importance of the concept of mathematical proof. Yet, Greek mathematics, with the exception of Archimedes and Diophantus had an aversion for arithmetic (especially the concept of infinity and infinitesimals) and algebra and an ove…

Were there any ancients besides the Greeks who did appreciate proof? It seems like Europe didn't quite measure up on that score again until the 1800s, either.

Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#15

Post by jerf »

seiji wrote: post #3
unmole wrote: post #2

Interesting collection. Disappointed to see the typical Hindu apologist, revivalist nonsense in the description though. Edit: What I mean by typical: http://youtu.be/RSHFzZmQPj0

Physics - Concepts of atom and theory of relativity were explicitly stated by an Indian Philosopher around 600 BC. Looks pretty accurate to me. All the best science comes from philosophers backed by feelings and visions instead of math.

Based on that sentence, there is an interpretation that would make that true. The idea that the matter may be discrete rather than continuous is quite old; the word "atom" after all from ancient Greece. Wikipedia also mentions Indian philosophers had the idea. Of course, they never were able to prove that the idea was correct, and a modern educated viewer can not help but bring in the modern view of the atom when they see the word "atom" (protons, quarks, gluons, etc), but the modern view would not match either the Greek or Indian conception. The word choice of "stated" is correct enough; they did not prove, they did not demonstrate, they could not resolve the argument, but the very fundamental root idea was recognized.

Similarly, the modern ear hears "relativity" and can't help but think of Einsteinian relativity, but the adjective "Einsteinian" is not redundant as it is not the only idea of relativity. Relativity as a concept also goes back a long way, but it looked more like Galilean relativity (if indeed it was even that formalized, which it probably wasn't), which contains certain contradictions in it which can be determined with pure reasoning, and indeed may have been (see [1]).

The summary leads to misleading ideas about what the Indian philosophers really knew/discovered/thought, if for no other reason than there is no way to accurately summarize the ancient ideas in modern words that briefly; it is not clear to me whether the author of the linked web page is himself confused or being deliberately mendacious.

[1]: http://mathpages.com/rr/s3-07/3-07.htm , and indeed, the entire first half of that book or so. Among this book's many points is that physicists were seriously beginning to consider whether they were going to have to give up on the general idea of relativity until Einstein was able to rescue it.

Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#16

Post by pramalin »

//Ancient India was a land of sages, saints and seers as well as a land of scholars and scientists. Rishis were the sages who built our great culture. They devoted their life, energy and experience for the welfare of people. They wrote Vedas - the manual of vibrations. Following this many field of science evolved in India. //

This is typical hindutva propaganda, where they claim that anything and everything originated from Vedic scriptures, which are for welfare of people.

Before buying into it, I would suggest the readers to review the works of Dr. Ambedkar such as Riddle In Hinduism. http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/

Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#18

Post by sn0v »

seiji wrote: post #7
managuru wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed - why dig up ancient books that did not stand the test time? Just go forward with what is present and focus on future.

When these issues come up, there's always a vague "comes from india" contingent willing to riot and avenge their country over the fact they are the best at everything. (Don't bring up any discussions about infosys, else you'll be inundated with how great and expansive they are.) Maybe it's because such a huge population actually has an origin place and story going back quite far? I don't have an origin. I come from s…

I'm from India and it pisses me off a bit as well, but you've got to admit there are people all over the world who're stuck in the past, where they're from etc. and on the other hand, ones who'd rather worry about where they're headed :)

Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#19

Post by novalis78 »

pflats wrote: post #12
shas3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'problem' with Indian math was the general aversion (or ignorance) of the importance of the method of proof. The more well known works of Greek mathematics were great in emphasizing the importance of the concept of mathematical proof. Yet, Greek mathematics, with the exception of Archimedes and Diophantus had an aversion for arithmetic (especially the concept of infinity and infinitesimals) and algebra and an ove…

Based on my reading, I couldn't agree more with your post. Hence my note about Bhaskara II's work being "rough"; I was trying to write for a lay audience. I too find myself wondering what the world would be like if there were more crossover between the early mathematical cultures. A few pages of Fibonacci's Liber Abaci pretty much transformed European math. I saw a couple criticisms of the page's overall tone; I want…

Regarding the "what-if" section: Could have been quite interesting if the early ancient Indian Universities around 1000 AD in Nalanda, Vikramasila etc. had actually persisted (that is without obliterating Islam and the Muslim conquest) and instead connected with the Europeans (or Byzanz for that matter) directly. Indian logic seems to have been quite developed at an early stage as well, Dignaga is an interesting character.

Re: Ancient Indian Texts

#20

Post by the__prestige »

seiji wrote: post #7
managuru wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed - why dig up ancient books that did not stand the test time? Just go forward with what is present and focus on future.

When these issues come up, there's always a vague "comes from india" contingent willing to riot and avenge their country over the fact they are the best at everything. (Don't bring up any discussions about infosys, else you'll be inundated with how great and expansive they are.) Maybe it's because such a huge population actually has an origin place and story going back quite far? I don't have an origin. I come from s…

Agreed. These medium-tall people with transparent skin in northern europe where the sun don't shine are definitely not stuck in the past.
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