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Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

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Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#121
post #120
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My insurance costs haven't changed much based on my commute. Oil changes can be amortized to about $12 a month. We're still not anywhere on the same planet as the $700 figure. If wear and tear are adding up to $600 a month when you're only driving 45 miles a day, it sounds like your car is effectively dead and needs to be replaced.

How much did your car cost, including financing? How long will you have it? What will you sell it or trade it in for? You can't forget those costs.

You can forget those costs, because I'm talking about the difference between my car sitting in the driveway except for weekend trips and my car driving 45 miles per day. That cost is the same in either case, so it doesn't matter to the comparison.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of it is crime and/or race. The modern subdivision - full of meandering streets and poor connectivity to nearby arterials - is deliberate. It creates the gated neighborhood effect without the need to put up any unsightly walls or gates, and in effect keeps its residents separated from the world outside. The world outside presumably filled with undesirables. The lack of connectivity discourages through tr…

Anything other than a perfect grid in neighborhood design is due to classism? Sounds like bullshit to me. Mildly meandering side-streets: - Block some of the noise from nearby major streets - Obscure the view of traffic - Give the neighborhood a less "uniform" feel (think of how you feel in a neighborhood with 20 identical houses in a row. Arrow-straight roads contribute to that feeling) - Reduce through-traffic- not…

This article discusses suburban Atlanta so it might be worth noting that much of Atlanta is quite hilly. It would be quite difficult to build neighborhoods on a grid system. By using cul-de-sacs and other winding streets, you can better fit the geography.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#123
Where I live, Columbia MD, roads meander, have a hierarchical structure and there are A LOT of cul de sacs. It's a very walkable town, however, because it has walking paths that penetrate at least every other residential street, and provide direct walking routes to important sites, such as shopping plazas, schools and the mall.

It's not optimal, because commercial and residential area are zoned apart, so things aren't as close as they could be, but at least the routes between then are efficient.

I'm a 15 minute's walk from a grocery store, a mall, the elementary, middle and high schools that my house is districted to.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, now you are arguing there are ways to do it better , and I agree. But that doesn't prove sprawling suburbs were designed under the influence of classism. That's really the key thing I disagree with. Are you ceding that part? As for "a little less walkable", that was me hedging my speech because I don't know exactly how walkable the worst offenders are, and I consider "how much less walkable" to be tangential to…

I don't think every person who moved to or built a suburb over the last 50-odd years was acting with explicitly racist motivations, but he's basically just describing "White flight": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

To be fair, I don't think he's denying white flight, and what I'm describing isn't really race-centric (though as with all things socioeconomic in the USA, race is always a factor).

It's true that many suburbs, especially the early ones, were explicitly racist (i.e., bylaw-segregated communities), that's not what's under contention. The question is if the physical design of suburbia is influenced by the desire to keep undesirables out, above and beyond any sort of legislative or extralegal measures already being undertaken at the time.

There aren't any easy answers here. I think it's quite self-evident, but obviously there is room for disagreement. One of the defining feature of modern suburbs is the "gate" - the limitation of access points to nearby arterial streets. It's fairly obvious (and even a perk for buyers) that this effectively separates the road network within from the outside and discourages through-traffic. The main claimed benefit here is safety - but from what?

One oft-claimed safety improvement is traffic. This isn't really true as pedestrian fatalities are still comparable to urban areas. But I am willing to accept that people believe they are getting improved traffic safety in these places.

The other oft-claimed safety improvement is crime. The idea is that if you make through-traffic a giant pain in the ass, then anyone who is there who doesn't live there is likely up to no good, and it makes troublemakers and potential criminals easier to spot. This is not illogical - and it agrees with Oscar Newman's Defensible Space theory.

The question is to what extent that is classist. This is where things get murky. We know a few things from the early days of suburbia:

- Cities were experiencing high crime and violence, and suffering from a particularly compressed housing market due to the sudden return of millions of servicemen. This is the primary force that purged people out of urban centers and into newly developed suburbs.

- Only the middle and upper-middle classes could afford cars. Suburbia (in that format) was fundamentally incompatible with public transit. Occasionally this was an enforced incompatibility - see: Robert Moses and the low overpasses on Long Island.

- Suburban developments were explicitly advertised as an escape from the gritty, dangerous cities of yore. Many were explicitly segregationist. I don't think it's at all a stretch to say that separation from the poor (and black, if you want to go there) was a substantial motivator for early suburbs. Like today, personal safety is one of the main selling points of suburbs, the contention is to what extent that was code for "because no poor people here".

- The design of suburban street layouts to minimize usefulness as through-roads is deliberate and an oft-touted selling point. The contention is to what extent this was an aesthetic preference vs. an exclusionary tactic. This is a hard one, since even during those times people were less-than-explicit about motivations against the poor.

The use of street design as a class/crime barrier has been very transparent and blatant in the past - even the recent past. For example: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1996-05-03/news/1996124052_...

Most other cases are not quite as blatant and clearcut. There is grayness between simply wanting safe neighborhoods and wanting all poor people out.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#125
post #117

>Why do most people fail to walk even the 10,000 daily steps needed to stay healthy? Where does that figure come from? A lazy guestimate of 1m/stride puts that at 10km/day. That's 2 hours of walking a day. Who the hell spends 2 hours a day walking?

Who the hell spends 2 hours a day walking? Healthy people. My Fitbit defaults to wanting to see 10k steps a day, and 5 miles a day, which is more than 10k steps for my stride. My daily average steps is a bit over 8400 (including jogging for a bit less than 5k twice a week or so), and my average mileage is 3.8. I typically take one walk a day during work, for maybe 1000 steps.

Now if only I would remember to wear my Fitbit.

I keep forgetting I've put it to charge and never put it on.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#126
post #98
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Originally https://news.ycombinator.com/x?fnid=lNCOH0M1fh7uhr9viMZvek ) Yes, there are a lot of parking lots in Atlanta. As I commented on the original submission, they aren't there because of the market for parking, but because it's an easy use for commercially zoned land while you wait for someone to build a highrise on it. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3514352 )

Meta: I was sure, it was on HN before, yet I didn’t find it anymore and submitting it created a new entry even though the URL is the same. Your first link gives me ”Unknown or expired link.“, in the second I can travel up to the original submission. Strange, anyone knows why that is happening?

This came up in a discussion last week -- it got garbage collected.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#127
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. There are good reasons to want to live on a street that doesn't have a lot of traffic. (That doesn't equate to a cul-de-sac, although they trivially fit the pattern because there is only one end.) One of the problems with the street layouts described here is that pedestrians have to follow the same winding routes that the cars do. Another is that the larger, heavier-traffic roads aren't nice to walk along, e…

>One of the problems with the street layouts described here is that pedestrians have to follow the same winding routes that the cars do. Why do they have to? I don't see why you couldn't build a more natural walking path away from the street traffic that would be less objectionable to homeowners since there wouldn't be the automotive noise and danger to children.

That is what I and the parent comment were saying - that they ought to do this.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#128
Startup Founder. Married. 2 kids. We live in Mableton, and our office is in midtown. I know both areas well.

Cost of "home" in Midtown, $500k: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/847-Myrtle-St-NE-Atlanta-G...

Cost of "home" in Mableton, $200k: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4582-Somerset-Rd-SW-Smyrna...

Midtown, local elementary school is a 2/10 on GreatSchools. Mableton, 7/10. If you want to live anywhere near midtown and have a decent public school, tack on another $150k and you lose most of the touted walkability.

It's strange to build Mableton up as the straw man for Atlanta suburbs since it's only 10 miles from midtown and a ~25 minute commute to several of Atlanta's job centers, and is probably more diverse both racially and economically than midtown. A place like Kennesaw, 20 miles out, 45+ minute commute, and less diverse would be a smarter target.

So much of these discussions seem to be single people arguing against places they've never lived, trying to convince people whose lifestyles they don't understand.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#129
Atlantan here.

I lived in West Midtown for five years post-college. It's the epitome of hip re-urbanization and all that comes with it. I walked from my house to a local restaurant or shop exactly 0 times during those five years.

I moved to a cul-de-sac in a northern suburb six months ago. I'm 1 mile from 270,000 ft^2 of retail shopping and 1 mile from a walkable downtown with tons of shops and restaurants.

Do I drive 60 miles to and from work every day? Yes. I've also walked to restaurants and shops on numerous occasions. And as pointed out by rkischuk, I live in a house I couldn't begin to afford in West Midtown and we live in good school districts.

If you want to live in a small apartment in a high density area away from cul-de-sacs, good for you. Let me make my decisions based off what I've optimized my life for without demonizing me because we place different levels of importance on different items in life. I am happy spending $33/day to commute in exchange for a walkable area, larger house, better schools and more family-friendly environment.

Re: Why cul-de-sacs are bad for your health

#130

Atlantan here. I lived in West Midtown for five years post-college. It's the epitome of hip re-urbanization and all that comes with it. I walked from my house to a local restaurant or shop exactly 0 times during those five years. I moved to a cul-de-sac in a northern suburb six months ago. I'm 1 mile from 270,000 ft^2 of retail shopping and 1 mile from a walkable downtown with tons of shops and restaurants. Do I driv…

Atlantan also.

>> happy spending $33/day to commute

Just curious, how do you factor in an hour+ of commuting per day? For me, that seems like it would far outweigh the costs of moving further away from the office. Time away from kids, time not working/sleeping, etc. Money can be earned or received in investments, but Founder time is a finite resource at the business. Obviously if you're married with kids there are a lot of factors that determine living situation, but in isolation it seems like a false economy.

It seems like just multiplying by your effective comp rate would make this commute far more expensive than living closer. For instance, if you bill at $100/hr, you've just told me your commute costs a minimum of $133/day (~$2,660/mo) [at $150/hr, that's $3,660/mo, etc.]. This should easily cover the price delta between e.g. midtown and 30 miles out. And that's before factoring in the other benefits that come along with not spending that much time on the road every day.

I can't make the math work, I'm wondering how others justify it.

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