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The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

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171–180 of 211 posts

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Any cite for that? Kipling doesn't count! I've seen lots of horse fights, among individuals with and without wolf-teeth. In few of those were the bites even deep enough along the mandible to engage the canines, and in no case did the bite come from the side to emphasize the canine.

I found it here: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horse-care/horse-care-tips/ca... The relevant part follows: Originally “fighting teeth”, they have no occlusal contact, i.e. the opposing upper and lower canines do not meet, so they are of no benefit in the eating process.

Somewhere, Steven Jay Gould is very disappointed.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#172
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet. You over estimate the difficult, yes it's a little more work. Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it…

Tip to non-vegans: you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency, along with the vitamin D one. Tip to vegans: Hey! I thought you were going to have at least a little popcorn with that.

> you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency

Citation please? I've looked into this subject pretty intensely over the last decade or so and know of no controlled studies (or even poorly done observational studies) that demonstrate this in the least. The only place I've ever even seen this claim is on vegan advocacy forums as unsubstantiated claims or in studies of nutrition absorption problems as a general factor in the elderly. The amount of animal meat needed for full dietary B12 is actually shockingly small. A few grams a week. And it's water soluble so you just piss out any that's not used.

On the contrary I've read several studies that show that in the study populations, up to 92% of the vegans in the population were B12 deficient.

In another a little over 50% of vegans were deficient, while less than 10% of vegetarians and a single omnivore were B12 deficient.

I know of no studies where the studied, randomly sampled, vegan population was not majority B12 deficient.

In other studies that look for it, elevated methylmalonic acid (associated with B12 deficiency) was found in the vast majority (over 80%) of vegans while only 5% of ominivores and 68% of vegetarians. In the same study almost 70% of vegans were diagnosed with Hyperhomocysteinemia (caused by sustained deficiencies in B-vitamin groups or chronic alcoholism) while less than 20% of the omnivores were.

The most effective and reliable treatment for Hyperhomocysteinemia is a regular omnivorous diet of meat and eggs with a cure rate of nearly 100%.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#173
post #53

How do you know there are vegans on HN? Post anything about eating critters or dietary subjects. I'm about 1 more story from just flagging these from HN because the discourse on these subjects is as predictable and brain dead as a Daring Fireball discussion.

Flag a view you disagree with? How original and insightful. Well researched long form journalism is something HN discussion desperately needs more of. Whatever your opinion on eating animals is, where our food comes from is a discussion that needs to be had. We need less of Stallman and Bitcoin.

It's not the article I object to, it's the vegans crawling out of the woodwork throwing heresay, poorly researched studies, outright lies and moral browbeating around that I find endlessly tiresome.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#174
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how easy, cheap and healthy it is to live without meat, or dairy, for that matter. Given the volume and nature of advice in the vegan community for how not to hurt yourself eating as a vegan, I would say that "easy" or "healthy" is not a word that could be reasonably associated with a sustained, long-term vegan diet. Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered…

My doctors would disagree with that. Like I said, it's depressing how much ignorance is thrown around here on this topic.

You'd be surprised at how well studied I am on veganism.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#175
post #17
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are farms that aren't like that. If you truly care about animal welfare make a point of only buying meat from these farms and be willing to pay the higher price.

If everyone did that, there would not be enough meat to around. Something has to lose, either the animals or our meat diet.

Define "enough". Prices would go up, meat consumption would go down, not all meals would include meat, but I doubt people would be forced to go completely without meat.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#176
post #85
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we have the right to kill, why don't we have the right to torture?

Because there is a purpose to killing, but the only purpose for torture in this case is the maximization of profit.

The companies condoning the torture are publicly traded companies which are legally obligated to maximize profits. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that this is happening on a massive scale. They only ways we can stop it are to create new regulations (the ones there today are ignored and the government is not staffed to enforce them) or for the public to stop buying from companies who torture animals. Both scenarios seem pretty unlikely to me, so I am not sure what to do.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#177
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Socially, it's also highly irritating to be around. Since most Vegans are converts to the life-style, it's like any other recent convert to a chosen life-style (religion, fitness, chosen computer platform, etc.), endlessly inserting it into every conversation and constant moral chastisement to self-justify the difficulties of their chosen life-style to those that honestly don't care in the least and have better thin…

I upvoted you for putting me into your shoes. I don't have much sympathy for people who get upset because their chosen life-style is difficult or inconvenient or socially awkward, but I'll definitely try to make better small talk to my vegan friends in the future.

Yeah, I'm definitely not blaming people for making small talk or being interested in me. If anything, it's on me to steer the conversation towards other things - something I'm actively working on doing.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#178
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are farms that aren't like that. If you truly care about animal welfare make a point of only buying meat from these farms and be willing to pay the higher price.

This is true, and you're absolutely right, however: This is way less convenient than it should be. Buying meat from individual farms is impractical on a day-to-day basis for most people. The problem is the anonymity of meat that is sold in grocery stores. You literally have no idea where your meat came from, how it was treated, how it was raised. Organic/free-range labels give you a little bit more info, but not a lo…

Completely agreed. The selection of good, humanely raised meats at most supermarkets is basically non-existent, and as you say it's basically impossible to tell where it came from. I think better and more rigorous labeling laws would solve many problems.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#179
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals are not sentient. Higher animals have some form of emotion and a great capacity to suffer but as far as we can tell today, they do not have self-aware and self-reasoning intelligence.

Sentience doesn't mean what you think it does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

Okay, I used the wrong word. My point remains unchanged. Animals, in their various are not capable of enough intelligence or self-reasoning to be considered thinking beings requiring equal protection with people. It is not morally wrong for a human to hunt animals, farm animals, use animals for labor, or keep animals as pets.

This does not make it right for a human to deliberately cause harm to an animal for pleasure or entertainment. I also would consider trophy hunting to be immoral if one leaves the body to rot.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#180
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tip to non-vegans: you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency, along with the vitamin D one. Tip to vegans: Hey! I thought you were going to have at least a little popcorn with that.

> you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency Citation please? I've looked into this subject pretty intensely over the last decade or so and know of no controlled studies (or even poorly done observational studies) that demonstrate this in the least. The only place I've ever even seen this claim is on vegan advocacy forums as unsubstantiated claims or in studies of nutrition absorption problems as a ge…

"Vitamin B-12 deficiency and depletion are common in wealthier countries, particularly among the elderly, and are most prevalent in poorer populations around the world. This prevalence was underestimated in the past for several reasons, including the erroneous belief that deficiency is unlikely except in strict vegetarians or patients with pernicious anemia, and that it usually takes ≈20 y for stores of the vitamin to become depleted."

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/2/693S.full

"Vitamin B12 deficiency is a common but under-recognized, yet easily treatable disorder in older adults. Although several causes exist, food-cobalamin malabsorption is now believed to be the most common etiology."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12650116

Older adults because it can take 20 years+ for deficiencies to become apparent.

http://chriskresser.com/b12-deficiency-a-silent-epidemic-wit...

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