The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat • Hacker News Board

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#151

Post by Jgrubb » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:37 PM UTC

Zikes wrote: post #118

Jgrubb wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with you on every point, except for the one about heralding veganism being ridiculous. I don't think it's ridiculous at all, especially when I look around at the average morbidly obese guy here in Northern NJ, and then go to Thanksgiving out in Michigan with my wife's family and the meat eaters are in the minority. Everyone at Thanksgiving looks amazing and healthy. I think the greater and more meanin…

I think your anecdote is a flawed positive correlation. Your wife's family may be largely vegan, but that doesn't strictly account for their health and wellbeing vs your average obese person. I think that their veganism is part of a broader health consciousness, where they most likely pay more attention to their nutrition and exercise than do the average "morbidly obese guy" in Northern NJ. I've no doubt that if they…

I agree with the substance and that's why I said "I think the greater and more meaningful challenge would just be to get more people to think about what they're eating at all, regardless of what it is." I don't know and have never heard of anyone who was "accidentally vegan" - it's a choice brought about largely by an awareness, just like a Crossfitter, or anyone who makes being conscious of what they're eating a cornerstone of their lifestyle.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#152

Post by scotth » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:39 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #145

logjam wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh. Argumentum ad populum. In other words, bullshit. Are you really trying to convince us that because some large number of people want to mindlessly eat meat, nothing can be done?

>>Argumentum ad... I've been reading your posts and I can't help but notice that you sound like someone who just started taking 'Philosophy 101: Introduction to Logic' in college.

Ad hominem. :)

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#153

Post by hedning » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:39 PM UTC

lukifer wrote: post #136

hedning wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steve Jobs had cancer for the most of those 10 years. It seems he tried a vegan diet to treat it among other things, that was silly. That does not make him a poster child for vegans, it seems like he wasn't even vegan before the cancer.

He tried to treat it with specific subsets of veganism, such as fruit-only and nut-only diets. My understanding is that he was vegetarian/vegan for most of his adult life; please correct me if I'm wrong.

Might be. I was just going off wikipedia, which only noted anything about veganism as a treatment for the cancer. But it sounds like you know more about it than me.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#154

Post by api » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:41 PM UTC

spikels wrote: post #123

api wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally tangential point: I sometimes draw an analogy between veganism and the extreme anti-force / volitionalist stance of radical libertarians. In both cases is may be radically moral, but the problem with the libertarian case is similar to what you just said. Government force is just so easy. Is there some systemic social ill that manifests in an emergent fashion from the market? Pass a law and force it to change.…

I'm glad to finally see someone who supports wealth redistribution clear that it requires force (as well as being in their own self-interest). While I can respect this widely held position I am personally uncomfortable with this aspect. I wish we could achieve the goals of redistribution (btw-these goals need to be clarified) without force (i.e. voluntary charity). This actually seems possible to me because of the st…

Yep. I also wish I could get vegan meat, but it isn't available on the market yet. :)

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#155

Post by genofon » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:42 PM UTC

humans are animals, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not against improving animal's conditions, but I have the impression that most of the activist don't have much contact with nature and they feel that we are superior, so we don't follow nature's rule.

the reality is that a lot of people still struggle to survive like other animals, and it can be brutal.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#156

Post by bane » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:44 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #111

Jgrubb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Q: How do you know if someone is a vegan? A: THEY'LL TELL YOU. (full disclosure: married to a vegan, I couldn't resist)

As someone who is... often vegan, this happens because other people give you shit for not eating something. Usually, people notice that you say no to something that tastes good. And then they ask you why. So you tell them. And then they say something like this. I know vegans who have resorted to just saying they have allergies, because it's easier than dealing with how poorly people treat them for simply not choosing…

If you look through this thread, the reason vegans get blowback/mistreated is because of the near constant browbeating and morale posturing they do to justify their life-style.

If there was a population that arbitrarily decided to stop wearing underwear and came to me and constantly announced that they are underwear free and told me that wearing underwear was morally wrong and constantly chastised me for it, I'd think they'd be treated in much the same way.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#157

Post by contextual » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:51 PM UTC

huherto wrote: post #46

contextual wrote: post #26

If the suffering of animals matters, then eating meat is morally wrong. Animals are non-human persons who are aware of their own existence and who feel a wide range of emotions, just like we do. Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering t…

I am aware that we are causing pain to animals. But eating meat gives me so much happiness that I am not willing to live without it.

Some people, no matter what harm their actions may cause others, will only change if it's convenient. Congratulations, you are one of them.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#158

Post by WalterSear » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:52 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #150

vlod wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet. You over estimate the difficult, yes it's a little more work. Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it…

> Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it, it's just that they are a little lazy. Pretty much agree, but the kinds of nutrition omnivores lack are absurdly easy to get even by accident. But then again, you had to put a nutritional tip in your post…

>Socially, it's also highly irritating to be around. Since most Vegans are converts to the life-style, it's like any other recent convert to a chosen life-style (religion, fitness, chosen computer platform, etc.), endlessly inserting it into every conversation and constant moral chastisement to self-justify the difficulties of their chosen life-style to those that honestly don't care in the least and have better things to do with their time.

It's more complex than that.

Every time I sit down to eat in a social situation, everyone around me is fishing for small talk to make. So, they comment what I order, and want to hear all about it. Since I've had this conversation a thousand times before (at least), I'm sick of it, but also well versed in any responding to anything they say.

It's also stressful, because many times I've had to play this game, people will say patently offensive things - sometimes obliviously so, and sometimes because they genuine assholes. Either way, it slowly sticks to your psyche

So, I'm making small talk, on a topic, which makes me feel bad, that bored me to tears long, long ago, and has marked me as a permanent outsider in more than one situation. And this is while my erstwhile friends sit around chewing on a steaming piece of something that I could have easily made friends with too.

So, I'm not at my best.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#159

Post by bane » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:52 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #107

chollida1 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering to an audience of thousands in Europe was acceptable but wrong. Wow, wait until you watch an animal kingdom video. Your mind is about to be blown but the amount of animal on animal violence you'…

Nature is not morally right. In fact, nature is amoral. Pointing to nature and saying "nature does it so it's ok" is a bit like pointing at a landslide and saying "nature does it so it's ok to build my house like this". It's meaningless. Unlike most animals (as far as we know) we are in the unique position of being moral creatures. We created this morality idea, which was not present in nature before us. Killing any…

But it's not, meat is so essential to human diets that unlike all other non-meat eating animals, we evolved away the mechanisms for surviving on plant only diets (or at least the kinds of plants a human would be expected to find in their local environment - shipping scientifically engineered and manufactured yeast paste halfway around the planet is kind of cheating).

Reducing the arguments to "because we don't strictly need to, modern civilization can construct a balanced diet without meat" requires that we follow this argument and consider all elements of chosen behavior that go beyond what modern society has made possible that will strictly allow for life-sustainment and reduce life to an ascetic, needs only, life-style where every person is "morally" wrong for occupying more than a 6'x8' housing unit that are stacked into constructs as tall as modern engineering will allow and for using more than x number of joules for life-sustainment etc. etc. ad nauseam. Arguing that doing anything other than strictly necessary life-sustaining activities is morally questionable becomes absurd.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#160

Post by vlod » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:58 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #150

vlod wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet. You over estimate the difficult, yes it's a little more work. Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it…

> Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it, it's just that they are a little lazy. Pretty much agree, but the kinds of nutrition omnivores lack are absurdly easy to get even by accident. But then again, you had to put a nutritional tip in your post…

>Socially, it's also highly irritating to be around. Since most Vegans are converts to the life-style,

Even as a veggie (and vegan dabbler) I 100% agree that these types of people are annoying and I avoid them. Generally I avoid talking about it the same way I avoid what colour underwear I'm wearing. :)