The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat • Hacker News Board

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#141

Post by lukifer » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:22 PM UTC

asciimo wrote: post #110

lukifer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To take it to the extreme, we can't know for sure that carrots don't experience suffering due to our raising them for food. We have canines for a reason; meat is part of our evolutionary heritage. I respect the moral decision not to eat animals, and the fact that we do not raise livestock more humanely is unforgivable; but eschewing all animal proteins is extremely detrimental to one's health (the poster child being…

Are you saying that Steve Jobs died of a plant-based diet? Citation, please.

I'm saying it was a drag coefficient on his general health.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/01/29/steve-jobs-fruitarian-di...

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#142

Post by WalterSear » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:25 PM UTC

vlod wrote: post #131

bane wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how easy, cheap and healthy it is to live without meat, or dairy, for that matter. Given the volume and nature of advice in the vegan community for how not to hurt yourself eating as a vegan, I would say that "easy" or "healthy" is not a word that could be reasonably associated with a sustained, long-term vegan diet. Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered…

>Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet. You over estimate the difficult, yes it's a little more work. Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it…

Tip to non-vegans: you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency, along with the vitamin D one.

Tip to vegans: Hey! I thought you were going to have at least a little popcorn with that.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#143

Post by enraged_camel » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:26 PM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #100

logjam wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh. Argumentum ad populum. In other words, bullshit. Are you really trying to convince us that because some large number of people want to mindlessly eat meat, nothing can be done?

On the contrary I was suggesting we should take baby steps.

Oh. Argumentum ad baby steps.

;)

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#144

Post by simplemath » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:27 PM UTC

kaoD wrote: post #101

coldtea wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, there's no middle ground. Killing is killing. That's a tautology. It doesn't tell us anything. The real question is, what makes EVERY killing wrong? Are you wrong for taking antibiotics? If not, why not? After all "killing is killing". Are you a murderer for killing a mosquito? Why not? Since, you know, "killing is killing". Should a lion be punished for eating an antelope? Why not? After all, "killing is killi…

Using antibiotics is a defensive reaction against an attack. It's not killing if you're legitimately defending yourself (even law considers this situation). Indeed, you're a murderer for killing a mosquito without a reason. About the lion/fishing analogies, bringing law here doesn't make sense. Law is an artificial system. Punishment is essentially arbitrary. Both the lion and the fisher are essentially murderers any…

You eat plants. This kills the plant.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#145

Post by enraged_camel » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:28 PM UTC

logjam wrote: post #27

randyrand wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that I mean I don't think the United Sates public would (in the foreseeable future) accept that as an alternative to animal cruelty and less about my own opinion.

Oh. Argumentum ad populum. In other words, bullshit. Are you really trying to convince us that because some large number of people want to mindlessly eat meat, nothing can be done?

>>Argumentum ad...

I've been reading your posts and I can't help but notice that you sound like someone who just started taking 'Philosophy 101: Introduction to Logic' in college.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#146

Post by richardw » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

timje1 wrote: post #59

huherto wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware that we are causing pain to animals. But eating meat gives me so much happiness that I am not willing to live without it.

This is a good reply to the argument that I hear used a lot: "You just need to educate yourself. Read this website and watch this video: you'll never want to eat meat again!" What if I'm educated, have read the books, the websites, and still choose meat?

Well, nothing. Everyone has different balances of desire and empathy.

In my country there's a huge deal about rhino poaching for their horns. Pictures of dead rhinos with only their horns chopped off generally horrify us and most can't imagine why someone would kill a rhino for its horn. However, I recently read something about how these pictures have no impact on foreign purchasers of rhino horn - the desire for the commodity far outweighs any feeling for the animal, despite it being endangered.

So you might care about the rhino, but not about your food. Some might care about orphans, but not rhinos or food. Others might care about everything but vegetables. Who is correct? I don't know, but I think it's important to at least engage with the issue so our decisions are conscious. The end result isn't as important as simply having gone through the process.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#147

Post by Jgrubb » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

arsenerei wrote: post #114

Jgrubb wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with you on every point, except for the one about heralding veganism being ridiculous. I don't think it's ridiculous at all, especially when I look around at the average morbidly obese guy here in Northern NJ, and then go to Thanksgiving out in Michigan with my wife's family and the meat eaters are in the minority. Everyone at Thanksgiving looks amazing and healthy. I think the greater and more meanin…

> I think veganism is the logical conclusion to becoming truly aware of what you're eating, personally. You said you're married to a vegan, suggesting you're not vegan yourself. So by you're statement you're not truly aware of what you're eating? Or are you vegan as well?

Not a vegan, and I can say yes - I perform the mental disconnect in my mind that I think happens with most people when they eat meat that I don't really think about where it comes from. If I did/when I do think about it, I generally don't eat it.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#148

Post by WalterSear » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

toadkick wrote: post #92

WalterSear wrote: post #37

The opinions on this topic around here are so depressing given how easy, cheap and healthy it is to live without meat, or dairy, for that matter.

Sure, if taste is not at all a factor. But since we're human beings, it is a factor. It's "easy" unless you are someone who is repulsed completely by the taste of most vegetables. There's nothing "easy" about choking down food that tastes like poison to me. I wish I could flip a switch in my brain and suddenly love vegetables, for more reasons than just potential animal cruelty. But I can't. So it will always be "har…

These things look insurmountable from the outset, but tastes and food craving are actually a very malleable, and change based on what you eat - just at a time frame that is too long for us to be aware of: a matter of weeks and months, rather than days.

If you genuinely feel bad about what you are doing, I would suggest a two pronged approach: try and incorporate more kinds of vegan foods in your diet over time and educate yourself on a visceral level on the nastiness that is the food industry: watch the videos made inside slaughter houses and feedlots. Having options will make you want those options, and seeing the unhappiness that is actually going into your sausage will make you >feelI was vegetarian for 10 years before going vegan (vegan for 10, now), so I'm the last person to point fingers at people taking the slower road. That said, the selections and choices available (at least in western countries) today were inconceivable back when I became vegan ten years ago. It's the promised land!

The social part (ie, people being shitty, every dinner conversation revolving around what I just ordered, etc,etc) is always the hardest, still as hard today as it was then. Sure, people are more tolerant of dietary differences, but for the same reasons, they are also more full of dietary scientism (Soy gives you man boobs. Wheat gluten is a radioactive GMO byproduct. By eating locally, no cows were harmed in the creation of this steak.)

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#149

Post by strict9 » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:32 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #53

How do you know there are vegans on HN? Post anything about eating critters or dietary subjects. I'm about 1 more story from just flagging these from HN because the discourse on these subjects is as predictable and brain dead as a Daring Fireball discussion.

Flag a view you disagree with? How original and insightful. Well researched long form journalism is something HN discussion desperately needs more of.

Whatever your opinion on eating animals is, where our food comes from is a discussion that needs to be had. We need less of Stallman and Bitcoin.

Re: The Price We Pay for Cheap Meat

#150

Post by bane » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:36 PM UTC

vlod wrote: post #131

bane wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how easy, cheap and healthy it is to live without meat, or dairy, for that matter. Given the volume and nature of advice in the vegan community for how not to hurt yourself eating as a vegan, I would say that "easy" or "healthy" is not a word that could be reasonably associated with a sustained, long-term vegan diet. Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered…

>Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet. You over estimate the difficult, yes it's a little more work. Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it…

> Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it, it's just that they are a little lazy.

Pretty much agree, but the kinds of nutrition omnivores lack are absurdly easy to get even by accident.

But then again, you had to put a nutritional tip in your post which is a perfect exemplar of what I was talking about. Considering how small a percent of the population Vegans are (1-3% I believe), the amount of nutritional advice available and needed by the average vegan to sustain such a diet is...voluminous to put it mildly.

Socially, it's also highly irritating to be around. Since most Vegans are converts to the life-style, it's like any other recent convert to a chosen life-style (religion, fitness, chosen computer platform, etc.), endlessly inserting it into every conversation and constant moral chastisement to self-justify the difficulties of their chosen life-style to those that honestly don't care in the least and have better things to do with their time.