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Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

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Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#111

Post by kashif »

zimbabwe wrote: post #108
kashif wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, Its not that Mac users don't like full screen - they dont have a choice!

But they do have a choice, thanks to the aforementioned app. I have it, yet I'm still using only half my screen for Safari, despite no other apps being open. I like not being forced into this maxed-or-not mentality; on Windows, it was too easy to make every app take up the whole screen, and tab over. On the Mac, I've never gotten into that mindset, which I love.

If I may say so, you fail to see the forest for the trees. Windows and Mac are both in the same boat. They decide what is good for the user, they are closed source, and then you have to write software to do trivial stuff.

I prefer GNU/Linux, it allows me to change what I need to.

Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#112

Post by catch404 »

I use Fedora Core on my laptop and desktop pcs, and use a windows box with terminals to Fedora Core servers at work.

I've been thinking of getting a macbook lately - I've never used OSX and have heard good things (I also love the look of them).

I'm torn between my tried and true Fedora/ Thinkpad (I'll upgrade my existing one) combo and a shiny new macbook.

Are there any converts here? Did you miss the package manager? Do you find the paid upgrades not worth it compared to the 6 monthly Linux distro revisions?

I have a bad feeling I'll miss the convenience of yum install [package].

Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#113

Post by moe »

timdorr wrote: post #92
antirez wrote: post #27

I've two laptops, one with Mac OS X and one with Linux. I use both for development but as a client I prefer Mac OS X that Just Works. It was fun years ago to hack on config files and even to write my own device drivers when it was needed, it was a game with the benefit of learning a lot of stuff, but seriously, I expected Linux to be mature enough after a few years... instead it's the same problems again and again. A…

Speaking particularly about hacking on my OS of choice, I've got to hand it to the MacPorts crew for making that kind of thing possible without serious headaches. I've got a custom build of Apache, PHP (yes, I know...) and MySQL alongside my desktop OS tools that I love to use. It's a best of both worlds. Mac OS X from the developer's perspective is basically Linux done right.

Mac OS X from the developer's perspective is basically Linux done right.

That's an often-cited overgeneralization.

I'm a developer and OSX is not Linux done right for me. In my book the OSX window management is ridiculously clumsy and gives me nowhere near the speed/control that I have under ion3. For example: The latter gives me tabs on every frame, that means I can rapidly tab through any windows I have attached there, without moving my eyes. It also lets me setup multiple parallel mini-IDEs without thinking, because everything stays in place and never overlaps - unless I explicitly move it or make it so. People often get dizzy watching me because my workflow involves a lot of muscle memory; I know which sequence of keystrokes gets me where, hence my edit/compile/test roundtrips are quite a bit faster than what I've seen on eclipse or OSX jockeys - who commonly have to fall back to the cable-rat for any sequence that deviates from what their IDE anticipates (e.g. to juggle a few config files along the line).

For bragging rights, my sequence to setup a new "mini-IDE" with a 50/50 horizontal split (browser window full width on top) and a 50/50 vertical split in the bottom frame (two terminal windows each in left/right):

   * F9, Enter  (new desktop)
   * Alt+s (split horizontal)
   * Alt+Down (move to bottom frame)
   * Alt+d (split vertical)
   * F1, F1 (launch two xterms, left)
   * Alt+right (move to right frame)
   * F1, F1 (launch two xterms, right)
   * Alt+up (move to top frame)
   * F5 (launch browser)
That sequence takes me under 5 seconds, zero thinking and ofcourse I have the freedom to create any layout appropiate for the task at hand, with just a few keystrokes.

These sequences are my bread & butter (have 7 virtual desktops open for various tasks right now). I can not imagine going back to an old-fashioned mouse-driven window manager ever again.

So, show me functionality like that on OSX, then we can start talking about the other areas where OSX falls short for me.

Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#114

Post by Tichy »

zimbabwe wrote: post #99
duairc wrote: post #85

I use Linux exclusively. I did try OS X before (I have an iBook), but I just couldn't get into it. Linux users trying OS X have already commented on problems with window managers etc, so I won't repeat what they've said. The real thing is that I just can't stand about OS X though isn't about practical like not being able to get a certain application or type of application working or anything like that (I do generally…

It's simply that it's non-free, and the whole ecosystem of software for it is generally non-free. I know lots of Mac users and this doesn't seem to bug them or occur to them at all. That's because the exchange for a lot of OS X stuff is: You pay a small sum of money in exchange for developers that work their asses off on making your user experience perfect. Delicious Monster, Cultured Code, RealMac, Blacktree, Panic…

While I voted you up for interesting insights into another mindset, just one inaccuracy: 'You click "Accept" once, then never see it again.' - actually, it happens with every iTunes update. Even if you read the license the first time (and I don't), how many more times are you going to read it? So Apple can put in the license whatver they want?

Also I don't like your tone when you say "But most Mac users don't find it outrageous to pay developers for their time. "

It really isn't about that. I just don't want to tie myself to proprietary software. And something like apt is fundamentally impossible with proprietary software, unless you go the App store route (let Apple control everything).

Whenever I install a proprietary application that I have downloaded from some website I googled for, I feel as if my Computer has become unclean and untrustworthy.

Basically, the second half of your post is just nonsense ("Apple never fucks up etc."), but as I said, the first part was OK.

Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#116

Post by zimbabwe »

mixmax wrote: post #109
zimbabwe wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they do have a choice, thanks to the aforementioned app. I have it, yet I'm still using only half my screen for Safari, despite no other apps being open. I like not being forced into this maxed-or-not mentality; on Windows, it was too easy to make every app take up the whole screen, and tab over. On the Mac, I've never gotten into that mindset, which I love.

Actually this kind of reasoning was the primary reason I turned away from Mac. It's pretty obvious that you don't have a choice and that Apple, right or wrong, has mandated that you don't need to have your windows in fullscreen mode. Instead of openly discussing the shortcomings of the OS you come up with this sort of reasoning: I really don't like being forced into maxing my windows, much better not to have the choi…

Don't apologize for harshness: Your view's completely valid. I prefer a system that's that locked in, because it means I can figure out the computer's philosophy once and then everything gets easier. (The Mac's incredible dragging and spring-loading systems are the best instance of lack of choice making things supereasy.) But that's a personal choice, and one that definitely turns some people away.

Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#117

Post by zimbabwe »

kashif wrote: post #111
zimbabwe wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they do have a choice, thanks to the aforementioned app. I have it, yet I'm still using only half my screen for Safari, despite no other apps being open. I like not being forced into this maxed-or-not mentality; on Windows, it was too easy to make every app take up the whole screen, and tab over. On the Mac, I've never gotten into that mindset, which I love.

If I may say so, you fail to see the forest for the trees. Windows and Mac are both in the same boat. They decide what is good for the user, they are closed source, and then you have to write software to do trivial stuff. I prefer GNU/Linux, it allows me to change what I need to.

You have to write software to do anything, anywhere. Strictly speaking, with Linux you need to write software just to have a GUI. All of the "trivial things" you can do with your computer are things people wrote software to allow you to do.

OS X is completely Unix-based. All the things you can tweak are things I can tweak, too. I can also treat OS X like Linux if I want to: Getting Gnome or KDE to run on a Mac is really easy. I tried it out by downloading Amarok, which was a huge mistake because the lack of polish in KDE shines through when it's next to Mac stuff.

(I can make an argument about why closed source is a bad thing, but it would be rather lengthy. I'm assuming you'd rather me not derail this thread by providing it?)

Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#118

Post by zimbabwe »

Tichy wrote: post #114
zimbabwe wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply that it's non-free, and the whole ecosystem of software for it is generally non-free. I know lots of Mac users and this doesn't seem to bug them or occur to them at all. That's because the exchange for a lot of OS X stuff is: You pay a small sum of money in exchange for developers that work their asses off on making your user experience perfect. Delicious Monster, Cultured Code, RealMac, Blacktree, Panic…

While I voted you up for interesting insights into another mindset, just one inaccuracy: 'You click "Accept" once, then never see it again.' - actually, it happens with every iTunes update. Even if you read the license the first time (and I don't), how many more times are you going to read it? So Apple can put in the license whatver they want? Also I don't like your tone when you say "But most Mac users don't find it…

Even if you read the license the first time (and I don't), how many more times are you going to read it? So Apple can put in the license whatver they want?

It really isn't about that. I just don't want to tie myself to proprietary software. And something like apt is fundamentally impossible with proprietary software, unless you go the App store route (let Apple control everything).

Both of these are issues of trust. I don't think Apple will fuck me over with their iTunes user agreement. I do think the proprietary developers I purchase from won't stop making their stuff better any time soon. So far, I've never once felt that trust broken. I don't think it ever will break, because for Apple or especially a third-party developer to try and fuck its users over would be suicide. A two-man team can't afford to use their applications capriciously if their lifestyle is funded by app development.

Basically, the second half of your post is just nonsense ("Apple never fucks up etc."), but as I said, the first part was OK.

This is an argument that happens here once a week, and not just with my involvement, so I'll give my typical answer: Some people are the type that notices Apple's design expertise, and they're people who don't need explanations; other people don't care enough about design to ever notice, and that's completely fine too. Fact is, I think that my Macbook Pro with OS X is the best thing I've ever used in my life, and I love everything about it ferociously, but the things that make me fall in love likely aren't things that would interest you at all. Similarly, I don't feel your love for free software whatsoever. It's a difference of mindset that's completely cool.

Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#119

Post by wiemersl »

moe wrote: post #113
timdorr wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking particularly about hacking on my OS of choice, I've got to hand it to the MacPorts crew for making that kind of thing possible without serious headaches. I've got a custom build of Apache, PHP (yes, I know...) and MySQL alongside my desktop OS tools that I love to use. It's a best of both worlds. Mac OS X from the developer's perspective is basically Linux done right.

Mac OS X from the developer's perspective is basically Linux done right. That's an often-cited overgeneralization. I'm a developer and OSX is not Linux done right for me. In my book the OSX window management is ridiculously clumsy and gives me nowhere near the speed/control that I have under ion3. For example: The latter gives me tabs on every frame, that means I can rapidly tab through any windows I have attached th…

+1 on using virtual desktops to position things in 'space'. That is how i work and it is mighty helpful, especially when you have many different simultaneous servers/environments open. also, for what it is worth, i love being able to run the same os and basic configuration on my laptop as on my servers.

Re: Poll: What OS do you use everyday, or most often?

#120

Post by Tichy »

zimbabwe wrote: post #118
Tichy wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I voted you up for interesting insights into another mindset, just one inaccuracy: 'You click "Accept" once, then never see it again.' - actually, it happens with every iTunes update. Even if you read the license the first time (and I don't), how many more times are you going to read it? So Apple can put in the license whatver they want? Also I don't like your tone when you say "But most Mac users don't find it…

Even if you read the license the first time (and I don't), how many more times are you going to read it? So Apple can put in the license whatver they want? It really isn't about that. I just don't want to tie myself to proprietary software. And something like apt is fundamentally impossible with proprietary software, unless you go the App store route (let Apple control everything). Both of these are issues of trust.…

"other people don't care enough about design to ever notice, and that's completely fine too."

Or maybe they just have different tastes and preferences. Apple Design is not the only possible design, and it has it's downsides.

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