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President Obama calls on every American to learn code

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Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#401

Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in…

I've got a classical education in computer science, an engineering degree, and plus/minus about a decade in my coding skill being a major contributing factor in my ability to eat on a daily basis.

On the one hand, I concur with you, in that ability to produce a working system ex nihlio is both a) much, much harder than anyone suggesting the general populance Just Learn To Code expects and b) of limited utility to many people. To pick an example at random from the front page, there is virtually no problem with being severely poor in NYC that would get alleviated with any of the participants Just Learning To Code, unless that in the process transformed one of the involved adults into a responsible member of society. (There being many, many people in the story who could use that in addition to the obvious choices.)

Learning to code might assist people into having a better mental model of computers and a lot of computer-like systems which they interact with on a daily basis.

For example, you're a lawyer, and you have practical experience with how law and bureacracy works on a nuts and bolts level. I assume you've occasionally met people who believe that law/bureacracy operate in an entirely random and capricious fashion which cannot be influenced by their own behavior. Dealing with people who think that is a little trying, right? Both because it is wrong and because, more to the point, it causes them to take self-destructive courses of action. (To see many examples of this, see again the article on being extremely poor in NYC, where consequences are predictable based on past behavior seems to be as foreign as trying to explain thunderbolts as something-other-than-the-wrath-of-an-angry-god to ancient Greeks.)

If people had a mental model of how computers (and similar systems worked), it would improve their -- for lack of a better word -- digital citizenship. Paypal probably didn't freeze your account on a whim any more than the probation officer has decided to "violate" you based on personal animus. There was probably a heuristic triggered by behavior. More importantly, a) that behavior can be avoided in the future, b) that heuristic can probably be overridden by appeal to the relevant authorities, and c) that heuristic was probably instituted due to it achieving goals most of the time rather than as an instrument of oppression.

We could look back to a time in the not-too-distant past and say that, for the average citizen, knowing the nuts and bolts operation of the law was probably unnecessary: they didn't have touchpoints with the State that frequently and when they did the operation was well-understood by all parties. You don't have to understand the inner operations of magisterial courts all that well if you can appreciate that killing people is generally a bad idea. Recent years, however, have gotten the State into substantially more lines of business than just regulating who gets to kill who when. The average citizen can now expect to run into laws and their consequences quite frequently. At your job. At your doctor's. At your school. At your bank. When the government sends you a check. When you send the government a check. The average citizen is now expected to be able to make consequential decisions based on the law. There are many possible decisions which are wrong ones.

Similarly, in the not-too-distant past, you could have been totally ignorant about how computers operated. Computers were, after all, mostly maintained by other people and they didn't come into contact with your life that frequently. When they did, they were pretty easy to anticipate the function of even if you had no clue what Deep Magicks were invoked to cause it. The computer keeps a record of your bank balance, which it does via addition and subtraction, so you'd best assure addition and subtraction sums to greater than zero. As long as you do you'll have no problems with computers.

This is not the world we live in in 2013, and I would not bet that computers and similar systems become less relevant over time, any more than I'd bet that law suddenly decide to recede from its historically novel importance to people.

Computers operate consistently. Their rules are written in advance. It is easy to make mistakes in writing those rules. The symptoms of those mistakes will (generally) be predictable and consistent. Since computers operate according to rules, given the rules, we can make certain confident predictions about their behavior in advance of seeing it. Since computers operate according to rules, we can learn the rules they operate under by observation, and therefore make confident predictions about their future behavior by observation.

Everything I just said is something that you'll know in your bones by the time you've made your first substantial program, and yet they're Deep Magick to most people. Seriously. I think I could poll a family gathering of the McKenzies, whose average educational attainment is a master's, and probably get less than 20% of the family to agree that "Computers operate according to rules." My family, like most users, assumes that the devil box just does whatever it feels like and this is so frustrating when it stops them from getting their grant applications in on time.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#402
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Appending this to my own comment as a way of acknowledging the comments made in response to my question) I stand convinced that, though the majority of people will not be necessarily learn to code in the sense of developing full-fledged programs, there is much to be gained by exposing young people generally to the concepts behind programming and to encourage them to learn these concepts: this will inspire some to ma…

basic working literacy about how the digital world around them actually works I think it's useful to draw a distinction between "coding" and automation, and I wrote about it here: http://www.workingsoftware.com.au/page/When_does_automation_...

+1

I have put a great deal of effort into improving the level of automation that can be performed without writing code, or working with graphical mathematical structures (such as wiring together nodes in a graph, or building a flow chart).

The work done on Logo, a language designed to teach children how to program, has been particularly helpful. In the system I'm developing, everyone is using a "debugger" (without knowing that's what it's called) even in the process of getting onto the system.

A lot of the progress we've made has involved aggressively simplifying the development process into something that's at the level of using a spreadsheet (and just as concrete for the user). For example, if you have to develop an API, you've already excluded most of the people from being able to use your tool. API design is hard and takes a great deal of experience. That's the opposite of what it takes to get productive value from a spreadsheet.

I agree that there's a huge amount of benefit a user can get from being able to automate their own work, and to be able to easily and effectively share that automation with others. Today's scripting languages aren't even close to the "spreadsheet" ideal I think is possible.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#403
Giving some workshops I did with non IT (marketing, middle management, ...) here at the company, I think a lot can be gained by some 3 hour workshops with e.g. Scratch/Blockly.

Understanding the breaking down of problems into commands, loops, conditionals using variables, data structures, functions, about abstracting solutions into more general solutions, about refactoring, legacy code etc. helps a lot, even if one is not "a programmer" afterwards.

I can only recommend to everyone doing this at your company.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#404
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Only that nobody in their right minds would tell people to make mechanical engineering a part of the curriculum" At the elementary school level, my kids attend a psuedo-STEM school and sadly you're not too far off the mark. Its pretty much that and civil. Civil is actually a good one for kids. Give them a beach and some water buckets and shovels and they're happy for days if not weeks. Some clay and dirt works even…

Do US schools not have "shop" class that teaches this I certainly did wood and metalwork and technical drawing at my UK school.

Not exactly. Those used to focus on "actually doing stuff" and tradesman type careers, which about half the grads eventually end up doing after dropping out of super expensive university. Socially that has an incredible negative opinion over the past few years (lots of marketing by the .edu and banking complex to spend more on schooling). So between irrational hatred of the trades and liability costs and/or insurance, shops have been mostly although not entirely removed.

Drafting is still borderline acceptable because its assumed you'll be an engineer and obviously the training you get in autocad 2003 at school will be about as useful on the job in 2023 as my experience with Bank Street Writer when I use vim today (In other words zero if not negative)

The STEM fad is less oriented toward practical tradesman type stuff and more toward physical learning... we're doin' it "engineering style" if we build bridges outta lego for fun time instead of playing dodgeball or having a spelling bee.

The fad is burning out... An inductive proof of all .edu fads, or all fads in general, is something like generation zero was real STEM, but n+1 was 95% of what passed for STEM in generation n and 5% whatever we used to do. Once generation n gets to a high enough number you end up doing whatever you feel like. Comes from not having a real definition, along with everyone loves a popular label, so kindergarteners attend STEM schools meaning ... um what?

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#405
post #13

This could be America's great leap forward into the 21st century.

I'd rather have a 20th century healthcare system, or a 20th century prison system, or a 20ths century set of .gov regulations, or a 20th century separation of church and state, or a 20th century social welfare system or ...

Don't get me wrong, I totally look forward to a 23rd century anti-matter power plant or whatever, but there's some huge issues to be solved first. "learn to code, but god help you if you get sick, because we won't" or "learn to code, in a for profit prison, because you smoked the wrong plant". "Or learn to code, quickly, before you get cancer, because we're business friendly now so we don't enforce environmental and food safety laws anymore"

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#406

Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in…

I've got a classical education in computer science, an engineering degree, and plus/minus about a decade in my coding skill being a major contributing factor in my ability to eat on a daily basis. On the one hand, I concur with you, in that ability to produce a working system ex nihlio is both a) much, much harder than anyone suggesting the general populance Just Learn To Code expects and b) of limited utility to man…

I don't aggre on programming not helping the very poor people, just as some examples:

Just scrapping a website that contains all the free charities in my area to put it in a single page to print.

Getting little jobs on freelancer-programmers-marketplace such as "elance"

Creating a blog where he writes tips about how to survive with extremely low income and sharing tips about it in the comment section.

Helping out other poor people to have a better grasp of technology so they can use it to improve even just a little bit of their quality of life.

Plus; the very-poor in America is a minority; the middle class is a bigger and where learning to code can be more useful.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#407
post #363

Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in…

Let's assume you're paying a developer $100k per year - not atypical in this day and age. As a business, I want that developer, who is likely making more than anyone else in the organization, to be working on "the most important thing" in our business at a given time. This might mean a new checkout flow, making sure the online shopping cart works, or scaling a website to accomodate 1000 users at once. There are many…

Perhaps a side effect of "everybody" learning to program will be the demand for more programming tools that are easy to use. Excel and VBA both developed due to use demand.

I've seen lots of people, from engineers to workers on the loading dock, use Excel to create convenient tools for their own use.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with Kevin. It's true that you can function without programming, but it's also true that being able to program could improve pretty much any job. Even a janitor could develop, say, a logistics application to optimize his path through the building he cleans, or build a roomba to vacuum for him. And more broadly, I really do think programming improves the quality of my thoughts. I remember when I was 10 o…

> Even a janitor could develop, say, a logistics application to optimize his path through the building he cleans, or build a roomba to vacuum for him. Those require a lot of effort (and required knowledge) for minimal returns. A better example might be a janitor could make a web-app which lets himself/others note what places need to be cleaned, what time they were cleaned, and then potentially notice patterns that mi…

We are a long long long way from that. Only 66% of Americans even understand the statistical concept of mean.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/c7/c7s2.htm

Americans encounter basic statistics and charts in everyday life. Many media reports cite studies in health, social, economic, and political trends. Understanding statistical concepts is important to understanding the meaning of these studies and, consequently, to scientific literacy (Crettaz von Roten 2006). One test of these concepts included on the 2008 GSS found that 74% of Americans could read a simple chart correctly and 66% understood the concept of "mean" in statistics. Understanding these two concepts was associated with both formal education and the number of math and science courses taken. Older respondents were less likely than younger adults to respond correctly to these two questions. Men and women were about equally likely to answer these questions correctly (appendix table 7-15).

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with Kevin. It's true that you can function without programming, but it's also true that being able to program could improve pretty much any job. Even a janitor could develop, say, a logistics application to optimize his path through the building he cleans, or build a roomba to vacuum for him. And more broadly, I really do think programming improves the quality of my thoughts. I remember when I was 10 o…

"it's also true that being able to program could improve pretty much any job. Even a janitor could develop, say, a logistics application to optimize his path through the building he cleans, or build a roomba to vacuum for him." If a janitor develops the skills to go that far, why would he still be a janitor? I'm not saying that to be glib. I'm saying that because coding is a specialty that requires a great bit of pra…

Absolutely. The real tragedy of our economy is not that everyone should be coding but isn't, but that it's not generating enough demand so that even people who are good at laying bricks and driving trucks, etc. have enough job opportunities
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