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Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

ritholtz.com

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Re: Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

#101

Post by AnthonyMouse »

akjj wrote: post #91
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The false-flags that involved the US are the exceptions that prove the rule. Are they? They are certainly rare, but so are actual terrorists attacks in the United States. If you choose at random an attack on the US outside of a combat zone within our lifetimes, you have a nontrivial probability that it was an admitted false flag operation. And that's just counting the ones they've admitted. This isn't to say that w…

> If you choose at random an attack on the US outside of a combat zone within our lifetimes, you have a nontrivial probability that it was an admitted false flag operation. Really? What are the admitted false flag operations against the US, forgetting about how old any of us are? If I look at the list from the article, the ones involving the US are either not false flag operations (my post), operations never put into…

Obviously if you go down this road you end up in conspiracy theory land because everybody has their own version of historical events even after the parts that everyone admits happened, but here are a couple of incidents not on the list:

FBI had an inside man in the 1993 WTC bombing but chose not to thwart the bombing by substituting the explosives for inert powder (allegedly to preserve the inside man's cover): http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/28/nyregion/tapes-depict-prop...

Second gulf of Tonkin incident famously used to justify the Vietnam war never actually happened. Government now admits it never happened, doesn't admit to intentional fabrication. (Is it a false flag operation to falsely claim there was an attack or provocation without properly verifying the truth of it before going public? Because if it is then we also get to put the Iraq WMDs on the list. For that matter, if we want to go that far back, the sinking of the USS Maine which was used to justify the Spanish-American war was also subsequently shown to not have been an actual attack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_Incident#Investigations).

I don't mean to make the argument that the US is often in the business of bombing itself in order to drum up business for the defense industry, but rather that the defense industry will use anything that looks like an attack to opportunistically drum up business for itself. Only after they've finished lining their pockets with our money does it come out that the original justification evaporates upon scrutiny.

Re: Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

#104

Post by eru »

moocowduckquack wrote: post #87
baddox wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would take extensive use of brainwashing and belief in fairy tales about an enlightened government, a city on hill exceptional-ism or what-have-you to think these don't happen. And the only way a government could pull that off would be to do something drastic, like if it forced all citizens to sit listening to government employees deliver government curricula for 8 hours a day for twelve years during some of the…

In schools, some countries tell the kids to do morning prayer, and some tell them to sing the national anthem. Some countries tell them to do both. I can't think of that many countries where they are not normally prompted to do either one or the other.

> I can't think of that many countries where they are not normally prompted to do either one or the other.

Most countries I lived in don't prompt either. (And in Germany, people would be out on the streets if a school did that kind of prompting.)

Re: Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

#105

Post by eru »

waps wrote: post #72
rtpg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in France, I've found that people are a lot more accepting of realpolitik from the french state. The limited time I spent talking to people in Japan about politics makes it seem like nobody can be an idealist about the japanese gov't with all the wheeling and dealing that happens there. I'm not saying that the US is some shining standard of gov't, but that the citizens seem to care a lot more about their ide…

I think the US government is partly such a big target for criticism (constructive and otherwise) exactly because Americans are such navel gazers. Conspiracy theories, and flat-out badmouthing the government happens in every country I've been in (and generally the government is far worse than the US one in at least some ways), but they never get traction. It's different in the US. The cynic in me would say that it's q…

The BBC is officially public, but not officially state controlled. Same goes for the German public broadcasters. (In Germany, they are controlled by the same people than run the political parties, though. Literally.)

Re: Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

#106

Post by braincellbattle »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #99
moocowduckquack wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In schools, some countries tell the kids to do morning prayer, and some tell them to sing the national anthem. Some countries tell them to do both. I can't think of that many countries where they are not normally prompted to do either one or the other.

In Canada we don't do either in public schools. Singing the national anthem is pretty much reserved just for Remembrance Day, maybe with a little bit of practice for a few days beforehand to avoid embarrassment at not knowing the lyrics. Certainly no prayers are ever said at school.

I'm Canadian and not that old (30's), and I was required to both sing the national anthem and recite The Lord's Prayer daily in grade school. Granted it might have been an exception as it was a small town.

Re: Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

#107

Post by mtdewcmu »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #83
mtdewcmu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False flag operations are the bread and butter of conspiracy theorists, and I'd like to show this list to some I know... This may not be an ideal list, but it describes things that actually occurred. The false-flags that involved the US are the exceptions that prove the rule. You can see how far these proposals typically get in the US government.

> The false-flags that involved the US are the exceptions that prove the rule. Are they? They are certainly rare, but so are actual terrorists attacks in the United States. If you choose at random an attack on the US outside of a combat zone within our lifetimes, you have a nontrivial probability that it was an admitted false flag operation. And that's just counting the ones they've admitted. This isn't to say that w…

The distinctive thing about hardcore conspiracy theorists is that they don't base their ideas on reality (reality as perceived by non-conspiracy theorists). They are not truly skeptics, because their skepticism is selectively applied. They are typically willing to believe anything they hear, just so long as it comes from another conspiracy theorist who shares the belief that everything the government says is a lie. So skepticism isn't the issue; the issue is staying in touch with reality -- specifically a reality that a variety of people can agree on.

Re: Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

#108

Post by prawn »

akjj wrote: post #62

This list is quite confused and several of the examples are not false flag operations. As Wikipedia's definition says, it has to be carried out with the purpose of pinning blame on another group and tarnishing their reputation. > Although the FBI now admits that the 2001 anthrax attacks were carried out by one or more U.S. government scientists, a senior FBI official says that the FBI was actually told to blame the A…

False terrorism is still terrorism and I feel that your list discounting these as actual false flag operations diminishes the main point.

Re: Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

#109

Post by oelmekki »

I'm shocked by the amount of comments here saying things like "they didn't planned to kill, they just took advantage of it" or "they planned it but didn't do it", so it's ok. It's not ok, it's miscreant attitude that demonstrates poor human skills.

I want to be represented by people with high human skills. Call me an idealistic if you want, it's ok for me in a world where vice is common place. Any way, we can't do anything great if we don't expect much of ourselves.

Re: Governments admit to faking terrorism: a list

#110

Post by Solarsail »

braincellbattle wrote: post #106
Mikeb85 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada we don't do either in public schools. Singing the national anthem is pretty much reserved just for Remembrance Day, maybe with a little bit of practice for a few days beforehand to avoid embarrassment at not knowing the lyrics. Certainly no prayers are ever said at school.

I'm Canadian and not that old (30's), and I was required to both sing the national anthem and recite The Lord's Prayer daily in grade school. Granted it might have been an exception as it was a small town.

I'd be surprised if that was an exception; I'm only a decade younger (and Canadian) and only missed out on The Lord's Prayer. But sung the anthem every morning. And I'm not in a small town... If that's changed, it changed recently.
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