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Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

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Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very fact that such a a place like SF has such a high cost of living is the problem. I recently just came back from Tokyo, truly a world class city with multiple times the population density of SF and the highest city GDP in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP You know what? Cost of living there is actually CHEAPER than here, food, transportation, hell, even housing is cheaper than the j…

Arguably, but that doesn't mean you can ignore it, or that the increase in cost of projects due to a higher cost of labor is a sign if mismanagement of those projects. If you would like to propose an intervention targeted at reducing the cost of living in SF, I'll certainly listen though I won't promise I'll agree.

A large part of cost of living is driven up by cost of housing. That has historical reasons in the case of California.

After the 70s California voters voted against raising property tax, the government had to get most of their revenue from income-tax, thus the highest state income tax in the country. Due to this, California government income fluctuates a lot with the economy (as we saw from 2008-2009), but that's a different topic.

One thing about property tax law in California is that it's calculated based on how much one paid for property, not its current worth.

The problem with low property tax is that when combined with federal tax incentive for housing mortgage and a cheap rate, it makes sense to invest in housing, and having the value going up does not punish the home owners like places with higher property taxes or places that calculate property tax based on the current values of the properties.

The end result is that existing homeowners in California are very much against new development since they've got a "I've gotten mine, so fuck you" mentality since they want to keep their existing properties valuable, and this is ESPECIALLY true for owners that own multiple properties that can use it for rental.

Imagine you bought a few apartment complexes in SF right after the recession back in the 90s, the places would be worth multiple times as much now but your property tax has not gone up, but you can charge $3k for a small one bedroom apartment, then you'd vote with all your power to make sure new development and new supply for housing is stalled.

This is one of the reasons why direct democracy doesn't work, since people are very short sighted when voting for important issues that could have long lasting effects. A suggested solution would be lower income tax, but make property tax to be calculated off existing values of properties, thus thwart artificial inflation of property values. Of course things like this will NEVER get passed since no politicians dare to piss off existing homeowners.

To be honest, I am personally pessimistic about this state's ability to change for the better, a big reason being the state's obsession with direct democracy that resulted in many bad policies in the past.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. At least the ones I've heard from, they want employees of companies in the South Bay and Peninsula to live outside of San Francisco. They believe that the mass influx of money is driving long time residents out, and that building more housing is the wrong solution. I remember reading one article that suggested there should be a wait list to get to live in the city.

Right, and that simply does not work in a free country. These people moved to SF a while back, but they still displaced the local culture that was before them, and now they are settled in and they think they rightfully own the place. The draconian zoning laws and anti-development sentiment is only gonna hurt these people more, since the cost of living is being driven up artificially and the people they are trying to…

Reminds me of this story posted by moxie[0] a while back:

There's an old wobbly story: A wobbly was riding a freight train across the midwest one summer, in between jobs. The train sided out in the middle of nowhere, and it was scorching hot, so the wobbly got off the train and started walking down a dirt road.

After a couple of miles, the road passed by an apple orchard. The wobbly hopped over the fence, and sat down to rest under the shade of a big apple tree.

The wobbly sat there enjoying the shade for 20 minutes, until a farmer came across him. "You can't be here!" exclaimed the farmer, "This is my land!"

The wobbly looked up at the farmer and asked "Really? What makes it your land?"

"What are you talking about you dirty tramp, I inherited it from my father!" replied the farmer, almost bewildered at such an indignant question.

"Hmm, and what made it his land?" asked the wobbly.

"Why, he inherited it from his father!" replied the farmer, now really angry. "It's been in my family for three generations!"

"And what made it your grandfather's land?" asked the wobbly.

The farmer, now barely able to contain himself, yelled proudly "Why! My grandpappy fought the indians for it!"

The wobbly nodded, stood up, pulled back his sleeves, and replied "Uh huh. Then I'll fight you for it, right now."

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5222540 (Moxie's original post with comments)

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public sector unions and corrupt/incompetent government workers in SF Bay Area is the root cause of the atrocious public transportation in this area, money is not. There are plenty of cities around the world that spends less per capita on infrastructure but still has a way more effective system.

There's enough blame to go around- city councils and affluent voters in communities in the peninsula and points beyond who can't break out of NIMBY enough to allow BART to expand from the East Bay are a big cause for why the transportation system is so badly Balkanized.

So what kills me in every one of these conversations about shitty old rules and regulations and nimbyism, is that to this day I've never seen one comment by one person on HN explaining exactly what we can do to advocate against the current rules and regulations to allow more housing to be built.

There must be some way for us all to be able to get involved in the right places in the right way to get these arcane regulations changed. Would hosting a daytime bike party during city council meetings with an obligatory stop at city hall help? Are there specific people to write to write to to voice our opinion?

Most people haven't the foggiest clue on how to engage effectively with local city politics.

Anyone have any effective suggestions here?

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the objection. It seems to me that while the buses may cause disturbances to transit, they're better than the alternative of having a bunch of private cars on the road. Think they would do that for your parking tickets? If those tickets were for behaviors that are actually socially beneficial, shouldn't they? And if they wouldn't anyway, how is it Google's fault?

I mean, how much do you supporters of the google buses want to grasp at straws? It just becomes a series of: -make argument. -have someone explain why your argument is wrong. -make up new argument, disregard whether it is remotely related to the original point you made. Just grasp at straws to seem "right". I mean, we start with "its not like the buses are doing something illegal" to which the answer is "yes, they ce…

I didn't say they weren't doing something illegal. You must have me confused with someone else.

every google employee would drive

The strawman is on your part.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#185
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. There was a problem and they decreased the amount of people affected by it. Since when is that a bad thing? Let alone worth protesting.

It's a problem when only a very privileged minority have access to a vital service.

That's a zero-sum fallacy. One person being better off doesn't make everyone else worse off. In any case you can make the same argument against any other private service ever.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#186
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes and yes. Google & co. did not ask anybody before they started using the public Muni stops. They just used them. To hell with regulations, traffic laws, and the city of San Francisco. Google & co. are bullying the city. This is the real issue.

The city isn't turning a blind eye at all, and there's no bullying. There's a conversation going on between the city and the private companies involved, in fact. They recognize that the coaches aren't permitted to use Muni stops, but there is currently no better solution - to eliminate them would greatly increase road traffic or choke Muni with the increased passengers. This is a highly complex issue and you cannot p…

Of course it's bullying.

The private companies have been violating traffic laws, repeatedly, for years.

They know what they are doing is against the law, but they keep on doing it.

Any impact on road traffic or Muni has got nothing do with the above violation of the law.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, but that doesn't mean you can ignore it, or that the increase in cost of projects due to a higher cost of labor is a sign if mismanagement of those projects. If you would like to propose an intervention targeted at reducing the cost of living in SF, I'll certainly listen though I won't promise I'll agree.

A large part of cost of living is driven up by cost of housing. That has historical reasons in the case of California. After the 70s California voters voted against raising property tax, the government had to get most of their revenue from income-tax, thus the highest state income tax in the country. Due to this, California government income fluctuates a lot with the economy (as we saw from 2008-2009), but that's a d…

While I think in many cases the counterarguments are stronger than you present them, I don't think I disagree with either taxing current value of homes, or reducing the impact of direct democracy in CA (at the very least, we should require something stronger than simple majority of votes cast).

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#188
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The city isn't turning a blind eye at all, and there's no bullying. There's a conversation going on between the city and the private companies involved, in fact. They recognize that the coaches aren't permitted to use Muni stops, but there is currently no better solution - to eliminate them would greatly increase road traffic or choke Muni with the increased passengers. This is a highly complex issue and you cannot p…

Of course it's bullying. The private companies have been violating traffic laws, repeatedly, for years. They know what they are doing is against the law, but they keep on doing it. Any impact on road traffic or Muni has got nothing do with the above violation of the law.

Just to be clear - you advocate fining UCSF for a decade of back-fines as well, right? Since their shuttles do the same thing.

Or are we only ok with bullying the tech companies back?

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