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President Obama calls on every American to learn code

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Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#241

Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in…

as a "real engineer"(tm), (more usefully, someone who codes both for a living and as a hobby) let me give a very concise answer (I'd be willing to be more verbose, I have a lot to say on this matter, but I really think the core point is braindead simple Edit: don't mean to imply braindeadedness if you don't see it, but that once I saw it, it seemed elegantly and stupidly simple.):

Programming is more than any language, tool, or algorithm, it is a way of thinking.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#242

>Starring Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, will.i.am, Chris Bosh, Jack Dorsey, Tony Hsieh, Drew Houston, Gabe Newell, Ruchi Sanghvi, Elena Silenok, Vanessa Hurst, and Hadi Partovi. Directed by Lesley Chilcott, executive producers Hadi and Ali Partovi. >Code.org owes special thanks to all the cast and the film crew, and also Microsoft, Google/YouTube, Facebook, Amazon, and Twitter for helping us spread the word What the f…

> What the fuck is this shit? They really pumped billions in marketing!?

I work for Code.org. "Billions" couldn't be any further from the truth. We operate on a shoestring. Everybody in these videos participated because they care about education, not because we paid them.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We teach writing as a required subject in schools, without the expectation that everyone is going to be a professional writer. We teach science without the expectation that everyone is going to be a scientist. We teach physical education without the expectation that everyone is going to be a professional athlete. These are all good life skills to have even if you don't learn enough to make it your career. So it shoul…

We should also be teaching how to change a tire, how to cook basic nutritious meals, personal finance, etc.. “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a compu…

I've assumed the quote was sarcastic. My sibling-comments made me question that, now.

Note: I never bothered to research the context.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think its important to note the distance between "knowing how to code" and "becoming a programmer." Sure, except we talk all the time about how bad hiring practices are in our industry, how bad we all are at discerning talent. So I don't really see this being a positive thing for existing developers (increasing supply and pushing wages down), though who's to say we deserve the situation we're in presently? Large…

That's a particularly cynical response to something I consider to be incredibly positive, but I think there's a lot of scar tissue in the industry from bad behavior so you may be right to be wary. Let me tell it from my perspective. I was a finance guy whose only coding experience was a couple of CS classes in college and some excel coding at my job in ibanking. When I decided I wanted to start a company, the first t…

Why'd you leave IBD/VC?

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#245

Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in…

I'm a purebred software developer so to speak and I think it would be good for normal non-technical people to learn the basics of programming, much like how many consider that it is good for them to learn the basics of math.

This is not so much about doing real software development, but rather the ability to control your environment, your tools, should you need to do so.

For example, for simple needs, developers/designers can cut down on the metaphors and interactions required to use the GUI and maybe reduce those to things that users are already accustomed to (like moving objects around with your finger), but the more feature-full some piece of software gets, the more complex its interface becomes. And here we have a problem, because the status-quo of graphical interfaces is for users to navigate trees or graphs of options, in search for the right button to click, or the right form to fill. And designers can delay non-flat GUI hierarchies as much as they can, but at some point a complex tree or graph structure becomes inevitable. At which point, users resort to rote learning. This isn't even mentioning actual (and horrible) programming languages often hidden behind GUI metaphors, for more complex apps, because you know, not everything can be done by clicking a button and sometimes you need to specify boolean conditions that trigger actions and so on. You only need to watch normal users struggle with a complex piece of software, like Microsoft Word or Excel or Photoshop, to see what I mean. It's freakishly painful to watch.

Excel, one of the most popular pieces of software in history, has an embedded programming language that users can use. Excel wouldn't be Excel without it. And sometimes you need an embedded programming language to get shit done, because language is still the most potent form of communication and this extends to user interfaces too. And we can't communicate using natural language with our computers, yet, but even if we were, we'd still have to come up with clear specifications that the computer could make sense of.

People are so afraid of computers because computers are absolute black boxes to them. I'm not afraid of computers, because I've assembled my own PCs, I know how they work and whenever some piece of software doesn't work like I want it to work, I know that (should I need to) I can search for alternatives, or I can automate it, or I could implement something similar from scratch. Many times it's not feasible of course, but in terms of what I'm afraid to do or not, the feasibility of it is of no consequence. Programmers are fearless, whereas users are fearful. And companies are exploiting this, locking users into software packages or services that are suboptimal and overpriced.

Automating stuff is priceless. For example I've got tens of thousands of photos that I need to organize - I just wrote a script that splits those photos in directories named after a YYYY-MM pattern and eliminates duplicates. No need for shitty software that might delete my photos by mistake because I clicked the wrong button. This is another skill that comes with knowledge of programming - the ability to automate shit and this is also not software development and would be useful for normal people.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#246

Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in…

Reading, writing, and mathematics have long been considered fundamental skills.

Obama is suggesting 'computer science' as now being a new fundamental skill. I would change that to 'programming'.

Most people do not question whether math is a fundamental skill. Programming is actually very similar to some types of math work in school, but with a heavy focus on practical problem solving skills using technology.

So the question you ask is similar to the question that many people ask about their algebra or calculus classes. But in the case of computer programming, I think it is even easier to see how it can be directly applied in many fields.

Basically the observation is that people need strong technology skills to contribute, since technology is core to nearly every aspect of life now, and programming develops core skills that can help with many types of technologies.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#247

Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in…

Just like the "prescribed foreign language course in middle school", a bit of programming practice may widen your horizon, and help demystify these seemingly opaque machines and networks.

It's about practice, not "knowledge" per se. Basic tasks, like: I have a folder full of files, how do I get the filenames into a text file or e-mail? Five-liners in high-level languages, the equivalent of asking for directions in a foreign tongue.

Of course, that idea comes from a time when one would own a universal computer, and own one's own data. You can argue that for many people, the filenames and text files I'm talking about are already a thing of the past, that it's all pinch and swipe, plus cloud storage.

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#248

Speaking as a non-coder, but as one who did minimal things with programming-like higher-level stuff ranging from the old DOS batch files to VBA and some dabbling with SQL, I am curious whether real engineers believe the idea of broad literacy in coding truly would be valuable and, if so, how exactly. I am not speaking as a skeptic, just as one who does not readily see the point and wants to know. Of course, we are in…

Do you think, as a lawyer, it would be helpful for everyone to know a little bit of law? To be able to more effectively navigate day to day things like contracts, leases, understanding of rights etc.?

A more proper analogy is: do you think it would be helpful to everyone to know the process for making laws?

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#249
post #232

Learning anything new is all well and good, but the thing that's actually valuable to society and "america's future" isn't really more coders, it's people who are really fantastic at what they do; whatever it may be. I'd rather someone dedicate their life to becoming the best preserve-maker in the world than fixing bugs in groupon. The preserve-maker may not reach billions of people with his/her work, but based on my…

But you're just saying "be the best you can be rah rah." That's nice but not very interesting or actionable. Why even bother saying it?

Re: President Obama calls on every American to learn code

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still find value within in. Sorry! Specialization is important for society collectively, diversity is important for the individual. Balance is key. I don't want to die gallantly though, just satisfied with whatever I've accomplished and left behind.

I can certainly agree with that. "Specialization is for insects" is needlessly insulting, though...

Isn't it a quote from a character in a storey? It may have been intended to be gruff or insulting, depending.
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