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Reform Government Surveillance

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151–160 of 223 posts

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#151
post #19

Among other things, this is the tipping point for how Snowden will be viewed. If all these powerful companies agree, in an unprecedented show of unanimity, that this is an important problem, then Snowden is ipso facto a hero for bringing it to our attention. The curious thing is, I feel the linkage works in the other direction too. If Snowden had been caught and was now having his brains scrambled by solitary confine…

I came down pretty hard on Manning, but Snowden is a hero. It's one thing to declare war on secrecy itself by dumping everything you can find. It's something else to release narrowly-targeted material solely for the purpose of pointing out to the voters that their government is lying to them. That's heroic in my book.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#152
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between companies collecting data on their customers and a govt collecting on their entire population...

There is a smaller difference when it's a business collecting data on the entire population.

Businesses cannot lock people in prison or send teams of soldiers in to arrest people. Businesses cannot (legally) send people or robots to assassinate others. I think there is a very big difference between businesses collecting information and governments collecting information -- because governments can do substantially more damage.

(Full disclosure: I currently work for one of the companies on the list.)

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#154
post #19

Among other things, this is the tipping point for how Snowden will be viewed. If all these powerful companies agree, in an unprecedented show of unanimity, that this is an important problem, then Snowden is ipso facto a hero for bringing it to our attention. The curious thing is, I feel the linkage works in the other direction too. If Snowden had been caught and was now having his brains scrambled by solitary confine…

This is a fulcrum for how Snowden is viewed by the populace; I find it all too easy to imagine the government symbolically caving in to this cause while still forcing Snowden personally to live out his life as a political refugee from the United States hiding from charges that never quite go away. And yes, getting imprisoned makes you less credible in the eyes of the public; people love a winner. :/

My cynical prediction is that the government will symbolically cave on bulk surveillance whilst doing a massive knowledge and expertise transfer to an ally with a populace not so troubled by surveillance. The process for searching through bulk data will just have an extra step where the US sends requests for intelligence data to their ally who can then lawfully search bulk communication data.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#155
post #19

Among other things, this is the tipping point for how Snowden will be viewed. If all these powerful companies agree, in an unprecedented show of unanimity, that this is an important problem, then Snowden is ipso facto a hero for bringing it to our attention. The curious thing is, I feel the linkage works in the other direction too. If Snowden had been caught and was now having his brains scrambled by solitary confine…

If all these powerful companies agree,

I wonder, empirically, to what degree this whole problem shows that these companies are even powerful. I think some observers have concluded, after the revelations about internal NSA documents claiming to be able to monitor internal server-to-server communications in the big tech companies, that the companies are weak. It also appears to be beyond dispute that some NSA practices were known in the industry for a long time but the companies didn't lobby about those directly to Congress.

in an unprecedented show of unanimity

I think these tech companies, in various combinations, have lobbied in concert before. How long those combinations last depends in part on how unified their interests really are when the details of regulations are drafted. The current call to action is "we hereby call on governments to endorse the following principles and enact reforms that would put these principles into action." Not all of the HN readers are unanimous even on the broad outlines of the principles, as the comments kindly submitted below your comment show, and anyone familiar with national government legislative and regulatory processes knows that the devil is in the details, as one webpage of bullet point policy goals gets changed into dozens of pages of national laws, international treaties, and administrative regulations.

All that said, I fully agree that it is very significant that the companies in the industry are speaking up, and I think that will do a lot to move legislative and regulatory reform of NSA surveillance programs. I agree with other commenters to your comment that it will be a good idea to help consumers have reliable products and services to ensure their own privacy on an individual basis and to regulate how private business corporations gather data on Internet users as well.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fulcrum for how Snowden is viewed by the populace; I find it all too easy to imagine the government symbolically caving in to this cause while still forcing Snowden personally to live out his life as a political refugee from the United States hiding from charges that never quite go away. And yes, getting imprisoned makes you less credible in the eyes of the public; people love a winner. :/

My cynical prediction is that the government will symbolically cave on bulk surveillance whilst doing a massive knowledge and expertise transfer to an ally with a populace not so troubled by surveillance. The process for searching through bulk data will just have an extra step where the US sends requests for intelligence data to their ally who can then lawfully search bulk communication data.

Indeed it's happened before. The Bush-era 'Total Information Awareness' program (someone really dropped the ball branding that one), got shelved supposedly, but in reality was changed or continued under different programs or names.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#157
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing more reviled by people who were born during the cold war than a criminal who defects first to china and then to russia. No amount of tech industry pr can facilitate a comeback from that. Almost half of the people in this country will always see Snowden as a traitor. Government surveillance has become a political wedge issue, similar to abortion. No one likes it or encourages it but people have strong…

> There is nothing more reviled by people who were born during the cold war than a criminal who defects first to china and then to russia. I was born during the Cold War and I don't see it that way. In fact, I think you have it precisely backwards. I remember being alive when the USSR and East Germany were going concerns, and those countries seemed so horrible -- the USA really was on what any sane person (by my defi…

It's the same fucking fight, man: the fight for freedom. The fight for human rights and a non-dystopian future for our children.

exactly.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#158
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The Appeals Courts, the Supreme Court, the executive (can pardon) So basically you're saying the watchers watch themselves? But this is exactly the problem I was pointing out. It's just not going to work, ever, and the US is excellent proof of that. Started with a minimal government and a strong constitution, but then.. an Empire happened. >> We certainly aren't hopeless, we just have to try a little harder. Not t…

> So basically you're saying the watchers watch themselves? No, because judges don't hear appeals to their decisions. Of course if you think the entire system is broken, then there's not much I can do to convince you.

The system is working fine, it's just not to our benefit.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing more reviled by people who were born during the cold war than a criminal who defects first to china and then to russia. No amount of tech industry pr can facilitate a comeback from that. Almost half of the people in this country will always see Snowden as a traitor. Government surveillance has become a political wedge issue, similar to abortion. No one likes it or encourages it but people have strong…

> No amount of tech industry pr can facilitate a comeback from that. Almost half of the people in this country will always see Snowden as a traitor. Your post is absolutely right, and the people responding to you really fail to capture the dynamic existing in American society. The nature of the American public is that it is willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt, but will view with intense skepticism…

This is not the same "surveillance apparatus [that] saw America through the Cold War." It's simply not comparable to even just fifteen years ago. The changes in technology and the self-satisfied attitude of the spooks have changed the game entirely.

Half of the people in this country are deluding themselves just like you.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#160
I feel a bit uneasy that the undersigned are all PRISM companies. All 8 of them. They seem to stick together and not mix with outsiders.

Note that there's already a similar initiative launched by Mozilla called Stop Watching Us [1]. None of the PRISM companies signed it.

Instead, they filed a petition (of little value, but with a big pomp) to allow for full FISA order statistics be published. Which was denied, incidentally.

[1] https://stopwatching.us/

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