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Reform Government Surveillance

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131–140 of 223 posts

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing more reviled by people who were born during the cold war than a criminal who defects first to china and then to russia. No amount of tech industry pr can facilitate a comeback from that. Almost half of the people in this country will always see Snowden as a traitor. Let's break this down. You'd have to: not know the difference between Russia and the Soviet Union not know that Russia wasn't where Sn…

Considering that the group of people we are talking about probably overlaps with people who still think Obama is a muslim [1], I think you are giving common sense too much credit [1]: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/obama-muslim_n_1706...

Trash talking on HN. So, sad. Got any data to support your claim? Let's see how you can make 17% = 49%.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4175089/

By adding noise to the argument, you are hurting Snowden's case. People are simply going to conclude that Snowden must be wrong people because people who believe in him are wrong. The fact is that most people live busy lives and actually don't spend much time thinking about Snowden. I think his 15 minutes of fame are up. I don't see him mentioned in the news, except HN, where the story will never die.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#132
post #19

Among other things, this is the tipping point for how Snowden will be viewed. If all these powerful companies agree, in an unprecedented show of unanimity, that this is an important problem, then Snowden is ipso facto a hero for bringing it to our attention. The curious thing is, I feel the linkage works in the other direction too. If Snowden had been caught and was now having his brains scrambled by solitary confine…

There is nothing more reviled by people who were born during the cold war than a criminal who defects first to china and then to russia. No amount of tech industry pr can facilitate a comeback from that. Almost half of the people in this country will always see Snowden as a traitor. Government surveillance has become a political wedge issue, similar to abortion. No one likes it or encourages it but people have strong…

> There is nothing more reviled by people who were born during the cold war than a criminal who defects first to china and then to russia.

I was born during the Cold War and I don't see it that way. In fact, I think you have it precisely backwards.

I remember being alive when the USSR and East Germany were going concerns, and those countries seemed so horrible -- the USA really was on what any sane person (by my definition) would describe as the right side of that struggle.

Living under constant surveillance, scared to speak out even in private, corruption and bad pretense in place of the rule of law? Those things were horrible, and living under such a regime sounded unimaginably awful.

Fast forward some decades and here comes Snowden. That shit really resonated with me and virtually all friends of my age (39).

America is becoming that kind of place. Most of us had a creepy feeling that was happening after the G. W. Bush debacle, but Snowden proved it.

It's the same fucking fight, man: the fight for freedom. The fight for human rights and a non-dystopian future for our children.

The Cold War resonates, but in exactly the opposite of what you describe. We've got all that shit now: hyper-surveillance, secret and therefore meaningless 'laws', kidnapping, torture, America has fucking gulags now. The difference between us and East Germany is now mainly a matter of scale. But as Snowden showed, we were scaling up pretty fucking fast.

Snowden blew the lid off of it, he exposed the massive scale of it, and then he was literally running for his fucking life like some kind of Jason Bourne figure. He had a massive, ruthless security apparatus chasing him, willing do who knows what, and if they caught him it meant he was going to be tortured in solitary confinement for the rest of his life like Bradley Manning.

Nobody in their right mind would begrudge him from going any fucking place he had to in order to escape that.

And to my Cold War-shaped mind, it is impossible to think of him as anything other than a whistleblower that this country badly, badly needed.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing more reviled by people who were born during the cold war than a criminal who defects first to china and then to russia. No amount of tech industry pr can facilitate a comeback from that. Almost half of the people in this country will always see Snowden as a traitor. Let's break this down. You'd have to: not know the difference between Russia and the Soviet Union not know that Russia wasn't where Sn…

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. If Snowden was is Iceland, Switzerland, Germany or France he would certainly be viewed differently. Russia still has a way to go politically. Putin has been running the country for how long? Journalist tend to get killed: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in... And Russia is also a dangerous place to be gay. Snowden in Russia looks like politics on the part of…

It is one thing to avoid Russia from a position of power and freedom but it is completely understandable to go to Russia as a place of personal safety when so much of the world is denied to you as was the case for Snowden. I think it quite reasonable to assume that Snowden opposes Putin's nasty politics but also I believe it is reasonable for him to keep his mouth closed about that, having all the major governments of the world actively hating you is a bit much to ask of one man.

His going there made no statement that Russia was free or good just the for him personally it was possibly the safest move at that time.

I would also argue that his publicly speaking out on the abuses in the US, UK etc. may in the long term do far more to improve the freedoms in Russia by improving the acceptable international standards from where they are slipping to than if he had never leaked.

Politicians and even athletes who go to the Olympics have a greater responsibility to speak publicly against some of Russia's policies than a whistleblower on the run.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#134
post #40
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not once does the name "Edward Snowden" appear anywhere on the web-page or open letter! These companies are simply grand-standing to further their own ambition. They don't care what happens to Snowden, they deny even his very existence.

They may not all care what happens to Snowden, but I think it's unfair to say they're merely showing off. I think these companies are acting on pretty high principle. They have little to gain by issuing such a statement, except the goodwill of people like us, but since they're all participating, such goodwill is evenly distributed and no one of them derives an advantage from it. Whereas they all depend on good relati…

This is damage control by cowards Paul.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#135
So, the US' biggest data collectors are coming together to fight government surveillance?

I'm not the only one thinking this is a tad hypocritical, am I? It just makes me think that somewhere, some powerful dude went "They are trying to cut in on our action?!?" and decided not to accept projected financial losses by something as petty as a government.

But obviously, this might be the first voice governments actually listen to. Not because what they propose is the right thing to do, but because money.

Apparently this is the best the system currently allows. Capitalism depresses me.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#136
post #125

Honestly this makes me a little upset. While I am happy that these corporations are taking a stand against surveillance, I am not convinced of their intentions: * This summer's hailstorm was about NSA but also about them . This site obviously ignores this and shows these corps as innocent victims, which they are not. * It's clearly too little! "Governments should reform themselves". How should they do that? There are…

They quote Zuckerberg on that site: "Reports about government surveillance have shown there is a real need for greater disclosure and new limits on how governments collect information." So what about limits on how businesses collect information?

There is a huge difference between companies collecting data on their customers and a govt collecting on their entire population...

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#137
post #39
post #19

Among other things, this is the tipping point for how Snowden will be viewed. If all these powerful companies agree, in an unprecedented show of unanimity, that this is an important problem, then Snowden is ipso facto a hero for bringing it to our attention. The curious thing is, I feel the linkage works in the other direction too. If Snowden had been caught and was now having his brains scrambled by solitary confine…

I feel the same way, and have also been hoping for internet companies to put a stake in the ground. On the other hand, it frustrates me that the tipping point for how Snowden's legacy will be viewed is action by a set of corporations, and not action by elected officials, the media, or an informed public...

Upvotes here. This is why Citizens United was rightly decided. Right here.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#138
post #19

Among other things, this is the tipping point for how Snowden will be viewed. If all these powerful companies agree, in an unprecedented show of unanimity, that this is an important problem, then Snowden is ipso facto a hero for bringing it to our attention. The curious thing is, I feel the linkage works in the other direction too. If Snowden had been caught and was now having his brains scrambled by solitary confine…

There is nothing more reviled by people who were born during the cold war than a criminal who defects first to china and then to russia. No amount of tech industry pr can facilitate a comeback from that. Almost half of the people in this country will always see Snowden as a traitor. Government surveillance has become a political wedge issue, similar to abortion. No one likes it or encourages it but people have strong…

I was born during the Cold War, but I'm capable of understanding that

(i) when the government failed to give Bradley Manning due process, they forfeited the moral right to criticize Snowden for fleeing. Daniel Ellsberg is in a better position to comment on this than just about anyone else; here's what he said (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-07/opinions/40427... ):

"Yet when I surrendered to arrest in Boston, having given out my last copies of the papers the night before, I was released on personal recognizance bond the same day. Later, when my charges were increased from the original three counts to 12, carrying a possible 115-year sentence, my bond was increased to $50,000. But for the whole two years I was under indictment, I was free to speak to the media and at rallies and public lectures. I was, after all, part of a movement against an ongoing war. Helping to end that war was my preeminent concern. I couldn’t have done that abroad, and leaving the country never entered my mind.

There is no chance that experience could be reproduced today, let alone that a trial could be terminated by the revelation of White House actions against a defendant that were clearly criminal in Richard Nixon’s era — and figured in his resignation in the face of impeachment — but are today all regarded as legal (including an attempt to 'incapacitate me totally').

I hope Snowden’s revelations will spark a movement to rescue our democracy, but he could not be part of that movement had he stayed here. There is zero chance that he would be allowed out on bail if he returned now and close to no chance that, had he not left the country, he would have been granted bail. Instead, he would be in a prison cell like Bradley Manning, incommunicado.

He would almost certainly be confined in total isolation, even longer than the more than eight months Manning suffered during his three years of imprisonment before his trial began recently. The United Nations Special Rapporteur for Torture described Manning’s conditions as 'cruel, inhuman and degrading.' (That realistic prospect, by itself, is grounds for most countries granting Snowden asylum, if they could withstand bullying and bribery from the United States.)

Snowden believes that he has done nothing wrong. I agree wholeheartedly. More than 40 years after my unauthorized disclosure of the Pentagon Papers, such leaks remain the lifeblood of a free press and our republic. One lesson of the Pentagon Papers and Snowden’s leaks is simple: secrecy corrupts, just as power corrupts."

(ii) when they forced down the Bolivian presidential plane, they forfeited the moral right to criticize Snowden for staying in Russia.

Re: Reform Government Surveillance

#140
post #16

How about instead of asking the government to make this problem go away, as if it could, you offer products that thwart surveillance? I'll write you a check to cover the value of those "One weird trick to lose belly fat" ads.

What makes you think government couldn't make this problem go away?

Several reasons: Although the US government sets the pace, it isn't the only government that is snooping. Secondly, many governments will always consider some level of spying legitimate.

Therefore it is up to technology and service providers to secure their customers against any and all snooping.

The idea that surveillance can be "reformed" is unworkable, unrealistic.

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