Who Says Math Has to Be Boring? • Hacker News Board

Re: Who Says Math Has to Be Boring?

#21

Post by mostlyalive » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 6:42 PM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #11

One of the biggest reasons for that lack of interest is that students have been turned off to the subjects as they move from kindergarten to high school. Many are being taught by teachers who have no particular expertise in the subjects. They are following outdated curriculums and textbooks. They become convinced they’re “no good at math,” that math and science are only for nerds, and fall behind. That’s because the…

I think it should be noted that Charlotte Iserbyt's views tend to be towards the Alex Jones/New World Order spectrum, although that obviously doesn't mean she's wrong or that the educational system isn't seriously fucked up. I only point this out because those views can be a bit extreme, and sometimes flat-out wrong.

More info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Charlotte_Thomson_Iserbyt

http://www.infowars.com/exclusive-charlotte-iserbyt-reveals-...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p94_Cfo7XD0

http://www.prisonplanet.com/america-on-the-road-to-total-des...

http://www.infowars.com/charlotte-iserbyt-the-miseducation-o...

http://www.newswithviews.com/iserbyt/iserbyt114.htm

Re: Who Says Math Has to Be Boring?

#22

Post by thetwiceler » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 7:11 PM UTC

For those who aren't aware of it, I think Lockhart's Lament [1] is definitely worth a read. Here's an excerpt:

"How many people actually use any of this “practical math” they supposedly learn in school? Do you think carpenters are out there using trigonometry? How many adults remember how to divide fractions, or solve a quadratic equation? Obviously the current practical training program isn’t working, and for good reason: it is excruciatingly boring, and nobody ever uses it anyway. So why do people think it’s so important? I don’t see how it’s doing society any good to have its members walking around with vague memories of algebraic formulas and geometric diagrams, and clear memories of hating them. It might do some good, though, to show them something beautiful and give them an opportunity to enjoy being creative, flexible, open-minded thinkers— the kind of thing a real mathematical education might provide."

For some reason, the math curriculum is completely about learning techniques, which roughly correspond to formulaic manipulation of symbols. We basically learn to apply algorithms for manipulating symbols, and we do it over and over again. And of course, this is easy to test.

But it's also the absolute least important aspect we need to know! It's the part that doesn't involve thinking. And so we end up with some farce of an education where we learn the procedures without the context why people created them in the first place!

Take the quadratic formula: something wholly useless in real life, but taught to every middle-schooler in the US. Somehow, even though the name has "quad" in it, we learn it without learning the context of the ancient Greek concept of quadrature, and problems relating to whether it is possible to find a rectangle with a certain area and perimeter. In the derivation, we "complete the square", but nobody draws the said square!

And then we do a hundred problems involving applying the quadratic formula, which is neither enlightening nor useful.

[1] http://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/LockhartsL...

Re: Who Says Math Has to Be Boring?

#23

Post by vezzy-fnord » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 7:15 PM UTC

mostlyalive wrote: post #21

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #11

One of the biggest reasons for that lack of interest is that students have been turned off to the subjects as they move from kindergarten to high school. Many are being taught by teachers who have no particular expertise in the subjects. They are following outdated curriculums and textbooks. They become convinced they’re “no good at math,” that math and science are only for nerds, and fall behind. That’s because the…

I think it should be noted that Charlotte Iserbyt's views tend to be towards the Alex Jones/New World Order spectrum, although that obviously doesn't mean she's wrong or that the educational system isn't seriously fucked up. I only point this out because those views can be a bit extreme, and sometimes flat-out wrong. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Charlotte_Thomson_Iserbyt http://www.infowars.com/exclu…

Oh yes, there is an inherent bias to the conservative spectrum in Iserbyt's writings, but for the most part her compilation of documents is sound. This one, in particular, is fine.

For what it's worth, the Alex Jones media cult, despite its populistic pandering to the conservative Christian demographic, can be quite a breath of fresh air, and they do routinely talk about government, military and intelligence operations no one else will.

Re: Who Says Math Has to Be Boring?

#24

Post by daned » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 7:18 PM UTC

chasing wrote: post #15

One major problem, which the article touches on, is the media. Seems like normal people are usually presented as being completely baffled by the simplest bits of math and science. And those who understand math or science are presented as otherwise broken human beings: as people with egos out of control, people incapable of understanding other people, people who are irrationally evil, etc. Let's act as if a solid unde…

>watching someone poke at a calculator isn't as exciting as watching slam dunks

Well, that's true. I get really excited by both math/science and basketball so I feel I'm coming from an unbiased position here: Unless you have a spectacular color man commentating on the guy using his calculator, displays of physical prowess are going to win every time in terms of 'fun to watch'. The difference is the deep sense of satisfaction that comes from learning something. This sort of positive result from an insight can continue for a lifetime, whereas, for me at least, 'my' team winning a sporting contest makes me feel good for a few fleeting moments.

edit: missing words.

Re: Who Says Math Has to Be Boring?

#25

Post by eliteraspberrie » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 7:18 PM UTC

I was lucky enough to be taught mathematics by teachers who were actually mathematicians. There ought to be incentives for qualified professionals to go teach for a semester, perhaps a student debt forgiveness program.

Re: Who Says Math Has to Be Boring?

#26

Post by Derbasti » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 9:54 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #7

Derbasti wrote: post #3

> Nearly 90 percent of high school graduates say they’re not interested in a career or a college major involving science, technology, engineering or math I see a great problem in a society that shifts its focus from value-adding activities like research and development towards zero-sum activities like law and management. We clearly need both, but in the long run, innovation is what ensures future. I read somewhere th…

I can see a fairly intuitive argument for calling the practice of law zero-sum ("gain for one side is nothing but an equal loss to the other"). It isn't right, but I can see how people would come up with it. You might have something else in mind; do you think that the lawyers working for the ACLU are engaged in a zero-sum activity? I don't understand applying the term "zero-sum" to management at all.

A craftsman takes wood and creates a bench. The bench is worth more than the wood. Thus, he created value.

A manager does not do anything like that. He does indeed do valuable work, by enabling others to create value, but he does not create value himself.

But you are correct, zero-sum is a bad name for this. Do you know a better name? I was thinking about stock trading, where the money one wins, another loses, thus zero-sum.

Re: Who Says Math Has to Be Boring?

#27

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 09, 2013, 12:50 AM UTC

Derbasti wrote: post #26

thaumasiotes wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see a fairly intuitive argument for calling the practice of law zero-sum ("gain for one side is nothing but an equal loss to the other"). It isn't right, but I can see how people would come up with it. You might have something else in mind; do you think that the lawyers working for the ACLU are engaged in a zero-sum activity? I don't understand applying the term "zero-sum" to management at all.

A craftsman takes wood and creates a bench. The bench is worth more than the wood. Thus, he created value. A manager does not do anything like that. He does indeed do valuable work, by enabling others to create value, but he does not create value himself. But you are correct, zero-sum is a bad name for this. Do you know a better name? I was thinking about stock trading, where the money one wins, another loses, thus z…

[deleted]

Re: Who Says Math Has to Be Boring?

#28

Post by cafard » Mon, Dec 09, 2013, 1:23 PM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #11

One of the biggest reasons for that lack of interest is that students have been turned off to the subjects as they move from kindergarten to high school. Many are being taught by teachers who have no particular expertise in the subjects. They are following outdated curriculums and textbooks. They become convinced they’re “no good at math,” that math and science are only for nerds, and fall behind. That’s because the…

What evidence if any is there that Dewey was a member of any Communist Party? (And why that of Russia rather than America?) Dewey and Sidney Hook said very intelligent things about the Moscow show trials of the 1930s, which did not please the fellow travelers.

By 1950, says Wikipedia, Dewey was an honorary chairman of the Congress for Cultural Freedom, which as it happens was funded by the CIA. Why didn't an educational repentance follow the political one?