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A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#111

>most of the Republicans I know want the same basic things as most of the Democrats I know ... They all want a healthy planet That's a crock of shit right there. Most Republicans put the almighty dollar ahead of the environment and many still think global warming or climate change effects are a hoax. Mike Rowe must live in quite the small bubble.

I'm not a Republican, but I work with mostly Republicans in some of the charities I'm associated with, and at least anecdotally, that statement seems completely unsubstantiated, and carries about as much weight as "all Republicans are racists" or "all Democrats hate the rich".

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#112
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#2: I happen to believe that people should be entitled to education, healthcare, safety and respect. #3: There are certainly bad jobs. Jobs where the employer does not pay, abuses their workforce etc. #5: Debt you cannot afford? Sure. But sometimes debt is useful. A mortgage or a business loan for example. #6: Safety is everyone's responsibility. It's all well and good that you behave well but if Bill decides he does…

I read Mike's list and it filled me with ferver and the desire to stand up and make my life better. I read you list and it made me want to sit on my butt and mope.

In my experience, leaving emotion out of the decision making process usually yields more optimal decisions.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#113
post #42

> Think about it. Universities get to decide how much money to charge their students. Likewise, parents and students decide if they can afford to pay it. It’s a pretty simple proposition. But when the government suddenly makes hundreds of billions of dollars in student loans readily available — under the popular (and voter-friendly) theory that “everyone should go to college” — we see an unintended consequence. Well…

While it's true that tuition is a larger source of revenue than it used to be, most of that increase can't be explained by falling subsidies. According to this http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?submeasure=68... total inflation-adjusted revenue per student went from $5,846 in 1991 to $11,016 in 2011.

I'm not sure the linked data is correct. The charts from the 2012 SHEEO report [1] shows revenue/student increasing from $10,869 in 1991 to $11,095 in 2012 (these are 2012 dollars).

Here is the page with links to the 2012 report and data: http://www.sheeo.org/node/631

[1] http://www.sheeo.org/sites/default/files/publications/All%20...

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#114
post #38

I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it. But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople. * The trades are physically hard labor edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not…

> The trades are physically hard labor

Mike Rowe agrees with you, so what's your point? Of course it is hard. Mike's point is our culture is becoming increasingly averse to engaging in hard, physical labor, even in the cases where compensation greatly exceeds that of many other fields.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#115

For a leftist like Piers Morgan, it was a complete embarrassment to have a low-information voter asking ignorant questions when Mike Rowe just completely schooled her. I think your typical university is in panic mode right now. In 10-15 years, online will be the norm and these exorbitant tuitions will be a thing of the past.

She was so low-information that it almost seemed like a setup. I mean, really, she asked the most superficial, talking-point-like questions that provided him with perfect runway to espouse his views.

If he was going to write a script to allow him to peddle his world view, then her part would read exactly as it did. Almost too perfect.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#116
post #75
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm with you. I just wish it wasn't portrayed as such a partisan, negative thing. Which is frustrating because that's how he leads. I wish he could have just said "we have an untapped well of jobs which sit between unskilled jobs and highly skilled tech jobs. Someone has to run all these new computers. If you go to a trade school, you can get a good job in less time and with no debt." Heck, liberals and Democra…

I don't believe in unions as the ideal situation for workers or employers, I believe strongly when a company ends up with a union, it's because they did something stupid. Didn't pay enough, treated employees unfairly, poor working environment, any number of things, but generally something that could have been mitigated by 'doing the right thing' in the first place.

To be fair, the bigger unions aren't tied to their employers. There are, for sure, large companies with their own unions, or that might ought to have their own unions (e.g., Wal-Mart), but most of the larger unions arise from historical conditions that may or may not pertain to a given employer.

I've been a union member in the past, but I don't generally see the need for unions to exist in anywhere near the capacity that they do -- that said, for a counterpoint that justifies their existence, check out Harlan County, USA[1]. It's a documentary that illustrates how bad exploitative employers can be in the US.

And of course, the other counter to anti-union sentiment is that unions are just people. Employers have, like it or not, economic power over their employers, which could (or could not) be leveraged for abuse. Employee collusion is the fairly obvious counter to that advantage.

In short, my opinion of unions has evolved from unions are the worst -- to unions are great, in theory, but often bad in practice.

[1] - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074605/

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#117
post #89

Skate where the puck is going to be. How much confidence can you have nowadays that your job isn't one clever-roboticist away from being automated, if your main value contribution is skilled labor? The same economics that drive high pay for skilled welders who work in the heat also will drive dollars towards automating these jobs. If I have to pay a welder 100k a year now, if I can automate their job away for anythin…

MYCIN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycin), a program written in the 70s, was better able to diagnose infections than doctors. If failed because "in the 1970s, a session with MYCIN could easily consume 30 minutes or more—an unrealistic time commitment for a busy clinician."

Now, with most medical information already computerized (or headed that way), how much better could a modern MYCIN be? What would this do to the career of a typical doctor?

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#118
post #114
post #38

I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it. But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople. * The trades are physically hard labor edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not…

> The trades are physically hard labor Mike Rowe agrees with you, so what's your point? Of course it is hard. Mike's point is our culture is becoming increasingly averse to engaging in hard, physical labor, even in the cases where compensation greatly exceeds that of many other fields.

Wall street jobs are super stressful. Stressful enough that people not properly suited for it might kill themselves.

Programming jobs are mentally taxing. Mentally taxing enough that people not properly suited for it might become depressed, decide that they're a failure, and/or have a very hard time.

Jobs in science require math skills that are hard / expensive to acquire, which one might never master or become good at.

Jobs in law require very expensive educations, passing an extremely hard bar exam, years of work for low pay and long hours, for a job that only might prove to be good paying after the fact.

Becoming a doctor requires expensive education; Surgery require that plus steady hands. Etc., etc.

Jobs and trades have different pros and cons. I agree that yes, trade skills are physically demanding, but having done them before, they aren't that physically demanding. It isn't the same as being on a prison chain gang, and an average work day is less intensive than a couple of hard hours at a gym.

Obviously, this varies from trade to trade, but the I agree with you that the idea that trade skills should not be considerable because they require physical effort is fairly silly, unless the suggestion is that we should all eschew all forms of work, because every job has some sort of down side.

I don't know of any high pay, low skill, low stress, cushy jobs in the world. If someone knows of one that doesn't have some other downside I haven't listed, feel free to let me know. Email address is in my profile.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#119

> Think about it. Universities get to decide how much money to charge their students. Likewise, parents and students decide if they can afford to pay it. It’s a pretty simple proposition. But when the government suddenly makes hundreds of billions of dollars in student loans readily available — under the popular (and voter-friendly) theory that “everyone should go to college” — we see an unintended consequence. Well…

He's also implying that whether one should go to college is determined by his parents' finances, not academic skill, quality of the schools they've been admitted to, etc.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#120

Here's maybe a simple solution: Why can't it be made illegal to list 'college degree' as a requirement for a job? Everyone knows of jobs that any moron can do, but a college degree is required. Especially for white collar jobs in large corporations, you can't make it past the first layer of HR without a degree.

There were a few law cases that made it difficult for employers to test applicants.

* http://www.chicagonow.com/chicagos-real-law-blog/2012/02/do-...

* http://www.halfsigma.com/2006/12/why_employers_d.html

(just a few links from a Google search for "employers can't test IQ")

It's deemed socially acceptable to use college degrees as a proxy for "smart enough for the job" or even "smart enough to be trained for the job."

Alternatively, because primary education is so bad in the US (grades 1 through 12---roughly ages 5 to 18 for those outside the US) that a bachelors degree today is the equivalent of a high school diploma from the 1950s/1960s.

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