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Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

theguardian.com

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Re: Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

#111

Post by oeqa »

vorg wrote: post #108
ChristianMarks wrote: post #67

Higgs isn't alone in remarking that he would not have had the time today to conduct the kind of work he did in the 1960s. Brian Greene has remarked that today’s grant-driven academia would not have allowed Einstein the luxury of a decade in which to develop his General Theory of Relativity. Eric Weinstein wrote that, "We have spent the last decades inhibiting such socially marginal individuals or chasing them to drop…

> So what is really needed is a startup culture that provides for years of uninterrupted development and focus. Not just startups, but any worthwhile project really. From an interview with Rich Hickey: "I started [Clojure] while on a sabbatical I had given myself. Not a break from work, but a break to work, as a completely free person. I gave myself leave to do whatever I thought was right, with no regard for what ot…

That's an interesting link. I always assumed that Rich Hickey came from academia, given that he made a successful programming language. Are there any biographical articles talking about his background?

Re: Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

#113

Post by Anon84 »

irollboozers wrote: post #87
hyp0 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

aha! just as I suspected ... during 1951-1964, he published 16 papers, better than one per year. But, after his breakthrough, he eased back to 9, over 1965-2013... and only the first 3 look to be research papers (the remaining 6 seem to be historical recountings). Now, I don't blame him - do something incredible, why not slack off? He's way more accomplished than I could ever hope to be. But if you want an exemplar o…

Why is it slacking off? Is it instead not normal for scientists to publish 3 papers over ~40 years? How do we know whether or not this is normal or abnormal? I'm inclined to believe we don't. And that we only assume so because of the incentive structures in place in our grant-first, publish-always system.

Even 3 papers per year would be below average nowadays.

Re: Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

#114

Post by weland »

ChristianMarks wrote: post #67

Higgs isn't alone in remarking that he would not have had the time today to conduct the kind of work he did in the 1960s. Brian Greene has remarked that today’s grant-driven academia would not have allowed Einstein the luxury of a decade in which to develop his General Theory of Relativity. Eric Weinstein wrote that, "We have spent the last decades inhibiting such socially marginal individuals or chasing them to drop…

> So what is really needed is a startup culture that provides for years of uninterrupted development and focus.

Just a few wild ideas, what do you think about these alternatives:

1. A more socially-responsible business environment, so that startups aren't the only icon to pray to?

2. Different funding schemes for research on high-arcing topics?

3. Reducing the "everyone NEEDS to get a degree" hype?

A lot of the instant gratification behind phenomenons like the startup culture is responsible for much today's bullshit in academia (I've seen a ton of it before I left it). IMHO, the issues run a lot deeper than how academia is (disastrously) managed.

Re: Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

#115

Post by Angostura »

gscott wrote: post #90
Jtsummers wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Private schooling is bad; public schooling is even worse. That's where ideology substitutes for academics as well. Not picking on you, but this comes up a lot about public education as a tool for brainwashing. Often the implication is it's by those "liberal teachers". I must say, based on the voting record in the US, those teachers are incredibly ineffective brainwashers.

My kids come home brainwashed from school all of the time. I have to sit them down and have them think about what is being taught to them so they can look at it objectively and make their own decisions.

Some examples would be useful.

Re: Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

#116

Post by TheZenPsycho »

EpicEng wrote: post #93
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when hacker news had a culture that was embarrassed about making contentless unproductive comments like this. The article is about Peter Higgs and the current academic environment. The Hacker News thread contains a prolonged debate about the merits of some TV show. and then this comment.

I guess you failed to read the comment I replied to then? Comments sometimes spin off into subjects which are not relevant to the original topic. Welcome to the internet, lighten up.

I did read it. My point is, you contributed nothing. And you are still contributing nothing. And I shouldn't have to point this out. You should be self conscious enough to know that your comment contained nothing.

Re: Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

#117

Post by silverlake »

oeqa wrote: post #111
vorg wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is really needed is a startup culture that provides for years of uninterrupted development and focus. Not just startups, but any worthwhile project really. From an interview with Rich Hickey: "I started [Clojure] while on a sabbatical I had given myself. Not a break from work, but a break to work, as a completely free person. I gave myself leave to do whatever I thought was right, with no regard for what ot…

That's an interesting link. I always assumed that Rich Hickey came from academia, given that he made a successful programming language. Are there any biographical articles talking about his background?

He was a consultant. FYI: It's extremely rare for anyone from academia to make a commercially successful language. Their incentives are different. They want publishable novelty, and they don't care about building a useful suite of libraries and a vibrant community. Jones (Haskell), Syme (F#), and Odersky (Scala) are the only designers w/ academic backgrounds I can think of for marginally popular languages.

Re: Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

#119

Post by dekhn »

I attended grad school at one of the most prestigious institutions that exists. After I finished my PhD, I mentioned to somebody I had attended there and it had taught me to do science well.

THe person I was speaking to looked at me funny and said, "Oh no. You went there to learn how to write grants that get funded, so that you can manage a lab that carries out the next set of experiments, so you can write grants that get funded.". They were right: the value of my training program was in how to get funded, so I could do research.

Some of us saw the writing on the wall (grant funding for biomedical sciences doubled in a short period of time in the early to mid 90s, which greatly increased the rate of minted PhDs, which dramatically increased competition for slowly growing faculty positions).

I looked around, evaluated my options, and left for industry. I never regretted it. i still collaborate with academia, and write papers and do research, but my compensation structure and the options I have vastly outweigh those has I stayed in academia and become a soft-funded researcher.

Ultimately if your goal is to do blue-sky theoretical research you're going to have to work very hard to succeed. Maybe it's possible to do good theory and also be good at grantsmanship. I honestly don't know. But I decided not to play that game: there are LOTS of options out there.

Don't be stubborn and insist on your blue-sky theory job. Instead, be realistic and figure out what you want to do, and how to obtain the time to do it.

Re: Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system

#120

Post by ChristianMarks »

zzleeper wrote: post #99
ChristianMarks wrote: post #67

Higgs isn't alone in remarking that he would not have had the time today to conduct the kind of work he did in the 1960s. Brian Greene has remarked that today’s grant-driven academia would not have allowed Einstein the luxury of a decade in which to develop his General Theory of Relativity. Eric Weinstein wrote that, "We have spent the last decades inhibiting such socially marginal individuals or chasing them to drop…

Btw are u an economist? Nicola Persico's work is really good but those papers are hard to find casually =)

No. A historical figure in mathematical logic and complexity theory recently suggested that I earn a second Ph.D. in economics. It probably should have been the first, instead of mathematics. I work on agent-based simulations as a hobby. (No jobs in that area.) I make an effort to read whatever I can, but it isn't nearly enough.
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