The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA • Hacker News Board

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#121

Post by coldtea » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 10:52 PM UTC

iends wrote: post #94

dannypgh wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think apartheid is a good example of why the moral thing to do sometimes is to harm others and/or destroy property. It's not hard to argue at all. Preventing the suffering of the many by harming a relatively small number of people (or destroying practically any amount of property, really) is a clear win from a utilitarian perspective.

I understand your perspective and realize it's an easy argument to make. I see the same arguments about America's use of the atomic bomb in WW2. There is not much more to say on this topic with two opposing viewpoints :)

>I see the same arguments about America's use of the atomic bomb in WW2.

Only that use was totally unjustified, as Japan was surrendering anyway, a military defeat was already 100% feasible, and the bomb was used needlessy to send a message to the USSR.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#122

Post by JPKab » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 10:57 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #106

yequalsx wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I too am shocked. That the United States actively supported the Apartheid regime is a great national shame. I'm friends with a woman who grew up in South Africa. She is white. The stories she tells about the attitudes and what happened there during the Apartheid regime are revolting. She thinks Mandela is a saint and is very grateful for his leadership. Mandela was n…

> That the United States actively supported the Apartheid regime is a great national shame. The real shame is that The Afrikaner nationlist party that instituted apartheid ran on the platform in 1948, the same year that the Dixiecrats in America ran on a segregationist platform. Apartheid started to crumble in 1990, less than 30 years after George Wallace, as Governor of Alabama, declared "segregation now, segregatio…

I don't know why so many Americans think Ronald Reagan was so great. The more I learn about his policies, the more I think he was the lackwit actor playing politician that his critics say he was. His trickle-down economics BS is, as far as I'm concerned, nothing but a golden shower.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#123

Post by genwin » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 11:17 PM UTC

iends wrote: post #83

rhizome wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a simplistic assessment. "We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer violence with violence." Civil disobedience was outlawed and then the government used violence against peaceful demonstrators.…

Ghandi may disagree. Maybe not, I'm weak on history. I don't agree the end justifies the means, maybe you do, it's far too easy to get into a debate on morality in these topics. :)

You probably agree that the end justifies the means, but not seeing that because you haven't explored the situations in which it would for you.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#124

Post by moolriaz » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 11:24 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #118

moolriaz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit condescending. Terrorism doesn't have an accepted definition, and that definitely isn't my definition of terrorism, nor many others. Perhaps people living in America are more inclined to your definition. I believe that terrorism is defined by the desire to cause mass fear in the general populace by intentionally targeting innocent people, to send across some political message in whichever guise. 9/11 was…

>Terrorism doesn't have an accepted definition, Then it's going to be very difficult to make an argument that Mandela was not a terrorist. >In the Anglo-Boer war a similar tactic was employed by the Boers to great effect, but I have never heard of anyone referring to their actions during this war as acts of terrorism. The first hit I get for "Boer terrorism" is: http://www.angloboerwar.com/books/78-stevens-the-comple…

The connotations associated with terrorism are simply too strong to associate with Mandela. People will take great offence at this, no matter what pedantic definition you want to use for it. Regardless, your definition still doesn't account for the fact that Nelson Mandela did not personally do any of these things, or intentionally target innocents.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#125

Post by markdown » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 11:25 PM UTC

ilitirit wrote: post #71

moolriaz wrote: post #40

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with t…

As a non-white South African myself (Cape Malay - a descendant of Malaysian political activists exiled to Cape Town), I can confirm the legitimacy of this post. I have several family members who have strange names because the South African government officials at the time couldn't understand them so they just made up names for them. My dad had a dead end job because even though he was more qualified than his boss, a…

Even today, South Africa is introducing quota systems into their rugby organisations to try and correct some of the imbalances in sport caused by apartheid:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/New-race-quotas-for-SA-rugby-...

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#126

Post by rhizome » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 11:33 PM UTC

iends wrote: post #83

rhizome wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a simplistic assessment. "We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer violence with violence." Civil disobedience was outlawed and then the government used violence against peaceful demonstrators.…

Ghandi may disagree. Maybe not, I'm weak on history. I don't agree the end justifies the means, maybe you do, it's far too easy to get into a debate on morality in these topics. :)

I would suggest that while the ends don't justify the means, sometimes the end does depend on the means.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#127

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 11:40 PM UTC

moolriaz wrote: post #115

pessimizer wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandela was a terrorist. You're just having cognitive dissonance because you agree with him (as all right-thinking people should have.) To the extent that "terrorist" has any meaning, it is when a less powerful actor attempts to advance an agenda through creating an unmanageable situation for a more powerful institution by causing an increased sense of risk within individuals who are part of the support structure of…

That's a bit condescending. Terrorism doesn't have an accepted definition, and that definitely isn't my definition of terrorism, nor many others. Perhaps people living in America are more inclined to your definition. I believe that terrorism is defined by the desire to cause mass fear in the general populace by intentionally targeting innocent people, to send across some political message in whichever guise. 9/11 was…

[deleted]

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#128

Post by dannypgh » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 11:50 PM UTC

iends wrote: post #94

dannypgh wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think apartheid is a good example of why the moral thing to do sometimes is to harm others and/or destroy property. It's not hard to argue at all. Preventing the suffering of the many by harming a relatively small number of people (or destroying practically any amount of property, really) is a clear win from a utilitarian perspective.

I understand your perspective and realize it's an easy argument to make. I see the same arguments about America's use of the atomic bomb in WW2. There is not much more to say on this topic with two opposing viewpoints :)

Except that the overwhelming majority of the violence of apartheid was against Black people. You have to completely ignore context to think that there's a reasonable comparison between an oppressed people - a people that suffered both imprisonment and slaughter - attacking their oppressor and the US dropping an atomic bomb on a city.

All of the posts here decrying the violence of the ANC are ignorant at best. The violence of the ANC was nothing next to the violence of apartheid. The violence of the ANC was far more selective than the violence of apartheid, which was indiscriminate.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#129

Post by moolriaz » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 11:57 PM UTC

001sky wrote: post #114

moolriaz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is at best anecdotal evidence for a mass exodus of the 'best and brightest' fleeing SA. The only time I have been mugged, attacked, or stalked was during my time as a student in the UK (have had all three happen). Ironically I suffered a serious racist attack in the UK, where someone tried to stab me because I wasn't the right colour. The only time I have serious feared for my life. I have never had any such pro…

No offense, but you seem quite ignorant of the "non-anecdotal" data. Almost to the point of unbeleivably so. (1) Lack of Personal Security. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_security_industry_in_S... The private security industry in South Africa is the largest in the world,[2] with nearly 9,000 registered companies and 400,000 registered active private security guards, more than the South African police and army…

Definitely, it's a dangerous country. If you read my response again, I did not disagree with this. I just don't agree that there is a mass exodus of people. The wikipedia article you cite about this doesn't cite any hard data sources, and there are more relevant and recent measures like the most recent SA census.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#130

Post by moolriaz » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 12:09 AM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #120

moolriaz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is at best anecdotal evidence for a mass exodus of the 'best and brightest' fleeing SA. The only time I have been mugged, attacked, or stalked was during my time as a student in the UK (have had all three happen). Ironically I suffered a serious racist attack in the UK, where someone tried to stab me because I wasn't the right colour. The only time I have serious feared for my life. I have never had any such pro…

Not that I disagree with much of what you say, (Mandela was no terrorist) but your first paragraph starts out by pointing out someone citing anecdotal evidence, and then ends with you citing your own anecdotal evidence of racial violence in the UK vs. SA. As if your experience walking around in London vs. whatever part of SA (as you know a huge country) you live in is solid data. I have white friends from college who…

The person who sang that song was convicted of a hate crime, and is now facing criminal charges, so I don't see this as a legitimate reason to run away.

I would like to see some evidence for a mass exodus from South Africa, specifically would be interested to see if large amounts of money have been taken out of the country to fuel this. I don't think any data exists for this. I was pointing out that what was said was anecdotal, and am obviously aware that what I said is too. The issue is that this complaint about SA is simply not a realistic reflection of what is happening in the country.

BEE is necessary in SA. The extent of racial inequality even today is exceedingly obvious to anyone who lives in the country. It definitely isn't perfect, but any census data will still reflect that levels of unemployment among Black South Africans is higher than those of White South Africans (don't have time to look for the source now, but I read a paper on this). I don't see how there is an easy fix for Apartheid, and this is fine. I'm sure if we went and counted the assets of race groups we would find that White South Africans still have a much larger share, and a large majority of white people are employed in family businesses/practices established during Apartheid. Growing up in SA, this is just blatantly obvious to me. The job situation in SA is such that if you are qualified with a technical degree, you shouldn't have a problem getting a job regardless of race.