The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA • Hacker News Board

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#81

Post by jd_free » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:14 PM UTC

nashequilibrium wrote: post #77

moolriaz wrote: post #40

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with t…

The problem is that in the age of TL;DR, nobody here is going to take the time to read "A Long Walk to Freedom". So they will listen to snippets of info, mostly taken out of context. Yes Mandela did create the "spear of the nation" but most people do not understand the background of this or the reason, instead they resort to reading a few snippets and posting here. You get two types of people here, one group is liber…

The above is an example of exactly what's wrong with politics: A person who defines his side as "anything good" and the opposing side as "anything bad". Obliviously, he insists that the millions on the other side believe things that they do not believe, and gets angry with them for denying it.

Now imagine that you are on the opposite side of this person. How do you feel? Would you even remotely consider switching to his side, when his argument for doing so starts with the presumption that people on your side cannot possibly have any good intentions at all, even though you know that you yourself do?

Exactly.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#82

Post by wavefunction » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:14 PM UTC

moolriaz wrote: post #72

rhizome wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hagiography is wrong. It's only in the last 20 years that people have tried to make him into a Ghandi.

Mandela is absolutely distinct from Ghandi. While Ghandi lived in South Africa, he wrote racist slander towards black (African) people, referring to them as 'kaffirs' (the N word equivalent in SA). Here's a quote: "Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambiti…

I will have to check (I think it is found in "Village Swaraj" but it may be "All Men are Brothers" which would make more sense thematically) but Ghandi specifically talks about his experiences in South Africa and how it finally opened his eyes towards his own prejudices.

He writes about the experience in Pietermaritzburg and how it took this experience to realize that all men are brothers and deserving of equality. This is not to say the guy was a saint, but to mention that I believe he came around.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#83

Post by iends » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:15 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #63

iends wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandela was more than happy to use violence against the government as a tool in his cause for equality (although later he seemed to regret the need for it). Using violence, he broke reasonable and justified laws. Laws such as planting bombs, destroying property, and physically harming others. Just because we can all agree that his cause was just, doesn't mean he should necessarily get a free pass from criticism or ju…

That is a simplistic assessment. "We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer violence with violence." Civil disobedience was outlawed and then the government used violence against peaceful demonstrators.…

Ghandi may disagree. Maybe not, I'm weak on history.

I don't agree the end justifies the means, maybe you do, it's far too easy to get into a debate on morality in these topics. :)

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#84

Post by jd_free » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:17 PM UTC

iends wrote: post #60

mjb wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had no idea this movement existed, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I'm a South African. I am constantly disappointed by the amount of time and emotional energy some South Africans (and expats) put into historical revisionism and apartheid denial. There are many reasons for it, but it's worth reminding yourself that in 1992 more than 30% of South African voters voted to continue apartheid ( http://en.wikiped…

There seems to be revisionism on both sides. Before yesterday did not know that Mandela started the armed branch of the ANC which actively bombed government buildings and while Mandela was in prison (and maybe not involved) bombed public places where innocent people were killed. This isn't judgement, this is me as an American being shocked that the media and historical portrayal I've encountered never mentioned these…

Exactly. If you are under 35, there's a good chance you have literally no idea about anything bad Mandela ever did and believe that he was imprisoned for doing something Rosa Parks-like or something.

The fact that history can be rewritten like that is disturbing regardless of how it's used.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#85

Post by oijaf888 » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:18 PM UTC

noarchy wrote: post #55

tcdent wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate on "all of the bad things"? If there's anything to take away from this discussion on Mandela, it's that there are a lot of misunderstandings about what actually happened, especially if you are primarily informed by American media.

"all of the bad things" seem to continue: Cuba remains the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent. The government of Raúl Castro continues to enforce political conformity using short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of repudiation, travel restrictions, and forced exile. Although the Cuban government released dozens of political prisoners on the condition that they…

Singapore is like that too but we don't seem to single them out for it do we?

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#86

Post by dannypgh » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:19 PM UTC

iends wrote: post #75

scarmig wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't those laws only really enforced when non-white people broke them, though? After all, the apartheid state was more than happy to bulldoze thousands of people's homes and not pay restitution; it was more than happy to shoot hundreds or thousands of peaceful protestors and not prosecute anyone for it; it was more than happy to take political prisoners, break their limbs, and throw them out of airplanes a hundred…

I don't know anything about the laws being enforced. My point was, it's hard to argue that "the moral thing to do" is to harm others or destroy property.

I actually think apartheid is a good example of why the moral thing to do sometimes is to harm others and/or destroy property. It's not hard to argue at all. Preventing the suffering of the many by harming a relatively small number of people (or destroying practically any amount of property, really) is a clear win from a utilitarian perspective.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#87

Post by dannypgh » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:21 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #19

jokoon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the CIA should not have worked with those guys in the first place ? That's one part of capitalism I hate, paying fat checks, and knowing it will never backfire to you. When you're a government agency, when you hire somebody, there's espionage/politics involved, don't pretend the CIA is pinky pony. It's strategic moves from start to end. I've seen worse headlines.

This has nothing to do with capitalism and more to do with anything, colonialism and the Cold War. It was politics as usual, help allies to keep them. While it is easy to sit back and judge the past we have to realize that some actions were seen as prudent at the time. The nation Mandela came up in is far different from what it is today but so is the world. This by no means excuses actions of the past, but at the tim…

"While it is easy to sit back and judge the past we have to realize that some actions were seen as prudent at the time."

Not by black people.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#88

Post by Crito » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:23 PM UTC

iends wrote: post #75

scarmig wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't those laws only really enforced when non-white people broke them, though? After all, the apartheid state was more than happy to bulldoze thousands of people's homes and not pay restitution; it was more than happy to shoot hundreds or thousands of peaceful protestors and not prosecute anyone for it; it was more than happy to take political prisoners, break their limbs, and throw them out of airplanes a hundred…

I don't know anything about the laws being enforced. My point was, it's hard to argue that "the moral thing to do" is to harm others or destroy property.

Harming others may be morally ambiguous (or clearly just wrong) for some people, but I don't think anybody honestly believes that destruction of property should always be off the table. Industrial sabotage targeting the infrastructure of the tyrannical is a time honored tradition.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#89

Post by ilitirit » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:23 PM UTC

iends wrote: post #58

yequalsx wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I too am shocked. That the United States actively supported the Apartheid regime is a great national shame. I'm friends with a woman who grew up in South Africa. She is white. The stories she tells about the attitudes and what happened there during the Apartheid regime are revolting. She thinks Mandela is a saint and is very grateful for his leadership. Mandela was n…

Mandela was more than happy to use violence against the government as a tool in his cause for equality (although later he seemed to regret the need for it). Using violence, he broke reasonable and justified laws. Laws such as planting bombs, destroying property, and physically harming others. Just because we can all agree that his cause was just, doesn't mean he should necessarily get a free pass from criticism or ju…

> Laws such as planting bombs, destroying property, and physically harming others.

The problem with this statement is that he did not physically harm others, or instruct others to do so.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#90

Post by dharmach » Fri, Dec 06, 2013, 8:27 PM UTC

moolriaz wrote: post #40

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here. Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2: I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with t…

I also see many people nitpicking minor details to show that Mandela was not 100% peaceful and he talked about struggle. When you have nothing to complain to those aggressor and their violence, why complain that oppressed victim who has no power, is not perfectly peaceful, law-abiding and fair?