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The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

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Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#11

Post by sigzero »

yequalsx wrote: post #4
snrip wrote: post #2

F*ck apartheid, but for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime, but the allegations in the article are just from one source not directly related to the affairs. All the "Who knows" and "My guess" doesn't make the case any stronger.

Do you believe his jailors deserved to go to jail? What about his prosecutors? The results of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission clearly indicate evilness of the apartheid regime and those in control of it. That Mandela's response when gaining power was not one of retribution, revenge, and bloodshed clearly indicates in my mind that his was a principled, moral mind and that he clearly did not deserve to go to ja…

Weren't like 70K white people slaughtered while he was president?

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#12

Post by cglee »

pstuart wrote: post #7
jbooth wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought experiment: Some other civilization (let's say the Arabs) comes to America and puts us in a system analogous to apartheid, where the groups are whites on bottom and arabs on top. In that hypothetical, would your opinions be different?

Of course they would. But only then.

So you basically lack empathy.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#13

Post by scarmig »

trekky1700 wrote: post #10

I would like to point out that the article, despite it's leading title, states that there's little evidence to suggest the agent was working for the CIA at the time. He owned a security company and was hired by a South African government agency. Title really should be: "The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From A Hired Private Security Contractor Who Happened To Have Worked For The CIA In The Past"

This is inaccurate.

Mandela was arrested in the 1962, and Shirley (the person in question) only retired from the agency a decade later, in 1973.

http://www.salon.com/1996/11/14/news_577/

I believe the confusion comes from when the training manuals for the South African security/intelligence forces were being developed by him, which came later, after his ostensible retirement.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#14

Post by scarmig »

sigzero wrote: post #11
yequalsx wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe his jailors deserved to go to jail? What about his prosecutors? The results of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission clearly indicate evilness of the apartheid regime and those in control of it. That Mandela's response when gaining power was not one of retribution, revenge, and bloodshed clearly indicates in my mind that his was a principled, moral mind and that he clearly did not deserve to go to ja…

Weren't like 70K white people slaughtered while he was president?

It's unclear what you mean by that, but to the extent that it implies ANC reprisals or a race war, it's ridiculous.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#15

Post by jokoon »

trekky1700 wrote: post #10

I would like to point out that the article, despite it's leading title, states that there's little evidence to suggest the agent was working for the CIA at the time. He owned a security company and was hired by a South African government agency. Title really should be: "The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From A Hired Private Security Contractor Who Happened To Have Worked For The CIA In The Past"

Maybe the CIA should not have worked with those guys in the first place ?

That's one part of capitalism I hate, paying fat checks, and knowing it will never backfire to you. When you're a government agency, when you hire somebody, there's espionage/politics involved, don't pretend the CIA is pinky pony. It's strategic moves from start to end.

I've seen worse headlines.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#16

Post by powertower »

scarmig wrote: post #14
sigzero wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't like 70K white people slaughtered while he was president?

It's unclear what you mean by that, but to the extent that it implies ANC reprisals or a race war, it's ridiculous.

Good luck with the pretending that whites aren't targeted out of hate in South Africa.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-...

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#17

Post by pjc50 »

snrip wrote: post #2

F*ck apartheid, but for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime, but the allegations in the article are just from one source not directly related to the affairs. All the "Who knows" and "My guess" doesn't make the case any stronger.

Some background from Mandela himself: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/nelsonmandela

It's important to note the date of this speech at his trial, April 20 1964, _before_ the passing of the US civil rights act (July 2 the same year); so at this time parts of the US had apartheit-like conditions.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#18

Post by jd_free »

Coverage of Mandela is a testament to the prevailing powers' ability to rewrite history. Millions of people think he was put in jail for protesting apartheid or something else noble. He was actually a terrorist leader - his group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. The "activism" he's credited with while in prison was mostly arranging more killings.

Read about a practice his group created while he was in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#19

Post by Shivetya »

jokoon wrote: post #15
trekky1700 wrote: post #10

I would like to point out that the article, despite it's leading title, states that there's little evidence to suggest the agent was working for the CIA at the time. He owned a security company and was hired by a South African government agency. Title really should be: "The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From A Hired Private Security Contractor Who Happened To Have Worked For The CIA In The Past"

Maybe the CIA should not have worked with those guys in the first place ? That's one part of capitalism I hate, paying fat checks, and knowing it will never backfire to you. When you're a government agency, when you hire somebody, there's espionage/politics involved, don't pretend the CIA is pinky pony. It's strategic moves from start to end. I've seen worse headlines.

This has nothing to do with capitalism and more to do with anything, colonialism and the Cold War. It was politics as usual, help allies to keep them.

While it is easy to sit back and judge the past we have to realize that some actions were seen as prudent at the time. The nation Mandela came up in is far different from what it is today but so is the world. This by no means excuses actions of the past, but at the time who would have ever figured the transformation that took place in him at the time.

Re: The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA

#20

Post by the_af »

ilitirit wrote: post #9
snrip wrote: post #2

F*ck apartheid, but for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime, but the allegations in the article are just from one source not directly related to the affairs. All the "Who knows" and "My guess" doesn't make the case any stronger.

> for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail. TBH, while he did break the law, I think his course of action against the state was justified. That's obviously not an excuse that will fly in court, but saying "he deserved to go to jail" is a bit disingenuous given the context. Mandela pleaded guilty to the charges against him (sabotage of various state and military instruments). The state was looking for…

Agreed.

"Deserve" has little to do with going to jail. Going to jail is a legal matter. A moral man committing a moral act that happens to break an immoral law will go to jail according to that law, but does he "deserve" it?

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