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The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

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Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#11

Whenever I'm wondering if Moore's law is still prevailing as a trailing indicator, I check out: http://www.top500.org/statistics/perfdevel/ If that (logarithmic) chart starts to flatten - particularly for device #500 (more price sensitive than the first part of the list) on the list, then we're running into real obstacles. Let's check back in 2020 and see if Device #500 is running at 10 Petaflops.

Most (all?) of those machines are clusters that scale mostly by throwing in nodes. Even if you have completely static technology, you'll see an exponential trend as long as you're scaling with economic growth by adding nodes.

Except it is clearly scaling much faster than economic growth.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#12
> After another three generations or so, chips will probably reach 5nm, and at that point there will be only 10 atoms from the beginning to the end of each transistor gate, he said. Beyond that, further advances may be impossible. "You can't build a transistor with one atom," Samueli said.

I don't get it - did people assume that chips could get infinitely small?

Seems pretty obvious that Moore's Law would fail at some point.

Disclaimer: I didn't know about this law before today so I'm probably ignorant of something.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#13
post #7

I don't see this as a major problem since my nearly 4 year old computer is still working fine for most of my computing needs. Computer chips are so powerful now that they don't use a lot more than older computers didn't use.

Hmm, consider that you haven't spent any money on a computer in 4 years. Look at the 'health' of the computer companies like HP, Dell, Acer, etc.

The problem here is a bit more insidious than you might assume at first glance. The reason you can buy a motherboard for $100 which has close to a thousand individual components soldered to a 16 layer board is because a manufacturer invested tens of millions of dollars in a highly automated manufacturing line that could turn out millions of them a month, and all the connectors on them had injection molds made because billions of connectors would be needed, and testing companies built amazing bed-of-nails testers that can run 25,000 tests on that board.

When I was at NetApp our partners built systems for us (so called ODMs) to our specifications but in the thousands, not the millions, and our motherboards that had a similar complexity to the ones that Gigabyte or ASUSTek could sell cost us $800 each. Smaller runs, those in the hundreds, are like $2,500 to $3,000 each.

The lack of buying is taking the oxygen out of the system. These guys are cutting costs where they can, but there will come a time in your lifetime where buying a cost effecting "PC" class machine out of parts will be very very hard to do, they just won't have the volume. A new TV with similar smarts? Still cheap. But a desktop machine?

They call them economies of scale, when there is a scale, when there isn't they don't work so well. Factories in China are starting to switch over to making systems for server farms, not individuals. Amazon, Google, Microsoft might by 50,000 at a time. You and I, not so much.

We are on the leading edge of that change. I have a sense that it is going to be a fairly dramatic change.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#14
post #12

> After another three generations or so, chips will probably reach 5nm, and at that point there will be only 10 atoms from the beginning to the end of each transistor gate, he said. Beyond that, further advances may be impossible. "You can't build a transistor with one atom," Samueli said. I don't get it - did people assume that chips could get infinitely small? Seems pretty obvious that Moore's Law would fail at som…

Not only that, but the law itself should predict its point of failure.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#15
post #12

> After another three generations or so, chips will probably reach 5nm, and at that point there will be only 10 atoms from the beginning to the end of each transistor gate, he said. Beyond that, further advances may be impossible. "You can't build a transistor with one atom," Samueli said. I don't get it - did people assume that chips could get infinitely small? Seems pretty obvious that Moore's Law would fail at som…

Anyone with knowledge of transistors knows that transistors cannot scale forever. I imagine this point is emphasized for people who know nothing about transistors except their amazing history of scaling.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#16

I wonder what the post-Moore's law world will look like. The past couple centuries has been dominated by consumers and businesses automating and digitizing increasing parts of their lives as computers become more capable to handle them at the same low cost. (And the power the Internet gives us for being able to share information) As creating faster chips becomes harder, institutions will start to invest more in other…

> The past couple centuries

?? Centuries? You mean twenty/thirty years, probably? We don't really have computers until about 50 years ago, and even then it was not widespread.

You don't have to wonder what post-Moore's law will look like. Look at other industries when they become mature. The car industry is one example: there's not that much innovation that goes into making a car better in terms of performance. I mean, a car from 30 years ago may be less comfortable but still drives pretty well as long as it's maintained. What makes the difference then is not performance anymore but whatever added value you bring on it: durability, reliability, service, etc... no doubt sooner or later electronics makers will have to innovate in different directions as well.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#17
post #3

The end of Moore's law will probably come at about the same time true human-like AI appears. i.e. It seems like it will always be just a few decades in the future. e.g. Here's an economist article (sadly, paywalled) predicting that the end was nigh in 1995! http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-17272668.html If you extrapolate current designs out then, yes, a size barrier is approaching. So, we should expect new designs to…

Just because people were wrong in the past, doesn't mean that people are wrong now. This time, I really do think it's different.

Historically, scaling provided a few benefits. As transistors got smaller, they went faster and used less power. They also got cheaper. The first benefit, going faster and more efficient dried up back in the early 2000s when leakage currents because a problem. This is why transistors have been stuck at 3 GHz for so long. The second benefit, cost reduction, is now disappearing. The cost per transistor actually went up with the last node! These days, lithography costs dominate all else. The only way for chips to start getting cheaper is if EUV pans out (so far it's not looking great, but we'll see) or if we radically change the fabrication process and turn transistors sideways (this requires extreme etch control).

Even if it is technically feasible to go smaller, unless EUV costs go down it may not be financially feasible.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#18
post #7

I don't see this as a major problem since my nearly 4 year old computer is still working fine for most of my computing needs. Computer chips are so powerful now that they don't use a lot more than older computers didn't use.

Hmm, consider that you haven't spent any money on a computer in 4 years. Look at the 'health' of the computer companies like HP, Dell, Acer, etc. The problem here is a bit more insidious than you might assume at first glance. The reason you can buy a motherboard for $100 which has close to a thousand individual components soldered to a 16 layer board is because a manufacturer invested tens of millions of dollars in a…

>The lack of buying is taking the oxygen out of the system. These guys are cutting costs where they can, but there will come a time in your lifetime where buying a cost effecting "PC" class machine out of parts will be very very hard to do, they just won't have the volume. A new TV with similar smarts? Still cheap. But a desktop machine?

Servers have been moving in the other direction all my life, becoming more and more like your commodity desktop. My dad worked with mainframes; when I came of age, SUN sparc was still a thing. As far as I can tell, as time goes on, the server stuff starts looking more and more like the consumer stuff.

Hell, half the low-end server stuff these days has a built-in APU, and there's a lot of discussion on how we server types can use that.

That said, yeah, if you doomers are right and people stop buying desktops all-together, your 3x-4x estimate on cost multipliers /for the motherboard/ isn't unreasonable.

Personally? I think the reason why old computers work fine right now is that everyone who used to spend effort writing new software to make your PC seem slow is now writing new software to make your cellphone seem slow. The thing is? I think this will pass. This is the first wave of "wow, pocket computers are actually useful!" which is cool and all, but I think that we're approaching the point where we are going to run up against the fundamental limitations of the form factor.

But yeah, that's the thing; until someone gets around to writing new software that makes your PC seem slow... PC makers are going to hurt.

Interestingly, check out AMDs CPU roadmap:

http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-unveils-2013j...

Looks like their low-end server chip is going to be an ARM.

This is consistent with the idea that the volume (and thus the innovation) is going to be in the mobile arena.

Of course, it could also just be a desperation move by AMD.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#19
Here's my impression of the future of CMOS:

(1) Scaling will be technically feasible for many more years. (Intel's roadmap goes to 5 nm, and researchers have already made transistors as small as 3 nm.)

(2) However, even if scaling is technically feasible, it may not be financially feasible. Quadruple patterning may get you smaller feature sizes, but at a very high cost. The alternative to quadruple patterning, x-ray lithography (called EUV), is also quite expensive, but at least there's some hope that its costs will drop.

(3) Only if scaling is both technically feasible and financially feasible, we will continue to scale. But even then, the benefits of scaling will diminish (as they've been diminishing for years). Traditional scaling hasn't done much for silicon performance in years: recently most improvements in CMOS have come from straining the silicon with germanium. And the other beneficial side of scaling, cost, is also ending. Shrinking transistors gets you more chips per exposure/wafer, but at the same time it raises the costs of each exposure/wafer. We're finally reaching the point now where the increasing costs of each exposure/wafer are matching the savings of scaling.

In light of all this, it's hard for me to see performace per dollar per year (which is not technically Moore's law I grant you) continue at the rapid pace of the past, even if technologies like x-ray lithography, III-V semiconductors, optical interconnects, and whatever end up panning out.

Re: The Moore's Law blowout sale is ending

#20
post #7

I don't see this as a major problem since my nearly 4 year old computer is still working fine for most of my computing needs. Computer chips are so powerful now that they don't use a lot more than older computers didn't use.

Hmm, consider that you haven't spent any money on a computer in 4 years. Look at the 'health' of the computer companies like HP, Dell, Acer, etc. The problem here is a bit more insidious than you might assume at first glance. The reason you can buy a motherboard for $100 which has close to a thousand individual components soldered to a 16 layer board is because a manufacturer invested tens of millions of dollars in a…

PCs still sell by the truckload. There are developing markets as well where expansion is still possible. There's the PC gamer market, which will probably expand with SteamOS's initiative. Who knows what the market will be like 10 years down the road, but at this point, we are far from being at the edge.
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