Live data from Hacker News

We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

ignitiondeck.com

21–30 of 56 posts

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#21
post #2

The word terrorism is reserved for actions not approved by our government. Please don't dilute its meaning by using it for a customer insisting on a refund.

Sometimes reading the comments helps me decide whether or not to read the article. I wasn't going to read this one, but your comment made me think I should - I fully expected to "+1" your comment, because on the whole, I agree with your statement. Then I read the article, upvoted the OP, and decided to write this. A better headline would have been "We don't negotiate with blackmailing, SOB bullies who string us along…

>We don't negotiate with blackmailing, SOB bullies who string us along with songs of high praise only to demand - DEMAND - their money back for no reason after days/weeks of a fully supported free trial, and who threaten us with all the fury of god's own social network

There was no free trial. As I understood it, ignitiondeck does not do trials because they "want to discourage the process of ‘shopping,’ that is, someone testing many products in order to try them hoping to return the ones they do not like." (Is that really so bad!!!?!)

So no try-before-you-buy, no refunds. The customer claimed their plugin didn't work for them, after they bought it.

Their policy is what it is, I get that, but it really sucks, and they're just opening themselves up to this kind of negativity. The customer isn't looking so hot here with his ridiculous SEO threats, but neither is ignitiondeck.

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#22
As a counterpoint: I have the opposite policy for refunds, and have for the last 8ish years. The official version, to satisfy my accountant [+], is a full refund with no questions asked for 30 to 60 days. The unofficial version is that I will give anyone a refund in (basically) perpetuity. I think my current record is 70 months after the transaction.

My refund rate for BCC is 2.7%. That's the easiest one for me to calculate with a single SQL query. Don't hold me to these, but I think AR and my other products are at about 1% and 0.5%.

Refunds are a very easy way to amicably part ways with ex-customers who are not good fits for you, rather than having the resolution where a) they can't use your software and b) they feel like you've stolen their money.

Refunds quickly remove problem customers from your inbox. This will save you time and, more preciously, sanity.

Prominent money-back guarantees frequently increase sales in a statistically significant fashion across your entire company. This is one of the cheapest A/B tests to implement, by the way, since you can create a guarantee by adding two sentences of copy.

Most customers have a fully functional put option on your digital goods, brokered by their credit card company and assignable to you instantly by saying the words "Internet merchant" and "chargeback." You should prefer that customers resolve disputes amicably, via refunds, rather than aggressively, via chargebacks. Chargebacks come with aggressive fees ($15 to $25 plus the purchase) and accumulating too many of them can get your merchant privileges revoked. (This is about the point in the post where somebody is going to suggest adopting Alpha Black Lotus Depository Certificates, which they believe to be superior to credit cards because ABLDCs don't have chargebacks. This is a moot point because your customers don't possess ABLDCs, but be that as it may, charebacks are net welfare enhancing for merchants because, like generous refund policies, they encourage transactions.)

Refunds will not typically meaningfully impact your cash flow in a digital goods business. You probably have stupendously high margins -- they absorb refunds as a cost of doing business quite easily. You can implement a rolling reserve on yourself [++] to cover them -- mine is $500, which is more than adequate at a revenue figure in the six figures.

+ Your accountant may not be happy if you sell goods with perpetual characteristics because it makes revenue recognition more complicated than it needs to be.

++ Rolling reserve = "Don't spend the last $500 in the checking account", which is good advice for a host of reasons, not the least of which being you'll never worry about refunds impacting cash flow.

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#23
post #22

As a counterpoint: I have the opposite policy for refunds, and have for the last 8ish years. The official version, to satisfy my accountant [+], is a full refund with no questions asked for 30 to 60 days. The unofficial version is that I will give anyone a refund in (basically) perpetuity. I think my current record is 70 months after the transaction. My refund rate for BCC is 2.7%. That's the easiest one for me to ca…

>I think my current record is 70 months after the transaction.

If you are comfortable sharing it I would love to hear the story behind that.

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#25
"The reason we do not offer refunds is because our products are digital in nature, and digital products can easily be copied and reproduced. Once a digital product has been downloaded, it cannot be recalled.

Additionally, refunds can be costly, as fees convert positive transactions into negative ones. In other words, we lose money every time we refund a product.

Lastly, we want to discourage the process of ‘shopping,’ that is, someone testing many products in order to try them hoping to return the ones they do not like."

You can't do business in Europe with that policy. The Consumer Rights Directive expressly forbids it.

"Consumers have 14 calendar days to change their minds and return the goods for any reason

Currently under English law consumers have seven working days to cancel a sales contract and change their minds. This is commonly referred to as the 'cooling off period'. This will be extended to a minimum of 14 calendar days. The 14 day period will begin from the time the consumer receives the goods – not at the conclusion of the contract as is currently the case."

http://www.out-law.com/en/topics/commercial/consumer-protect...

edit - oh, and as far as the Reagan thing, their memory seems selective. - "A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not. As the Tower board reported, what began as a strategic opening to Iran deteriorated, in its implementation, into trading arms for hostages."

edit2 - Also, funnily enough, I am currently looking into buying various wordpress plugins for my employer, and I know for a fact that they would not even consider a company with this policy. So I guess I should thank Nathan for bringing this to my attention.

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#26
post #22

As a counterpoint: I have the opposite policy for refunds, and have for the last 8ish years. The official version, to satisfy my accountant [+], is a full refund with no questions asked for 30 to 60 days. The unofficial version is that I will give anyone a refund in (basically) perpetuity. I think my current record is 70 months after the transaction. My refund rate for BCC is 2.7%. That's the easiest one for me to ca…

Do you offer money back guarantees for the consulting you provide, too? Or does this advice only apply to products?

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#27
post #22

As a counterpoint: I have the opposite policy for refunds, and have for the last 8ish years. The official version, to satisfy my accountant [+], is a full refund with no questions asked for 30 to 60 days. The unofficial version is that I will give anyone a refund in (basically) perpetuity. I think my current record is 70 months after the transaction. My refund rate for BCC is 2.7%. That's the easiest one for me to ca…

>I think my current record is 70 months after the transaction. If you are comfortable sharing it I would love to hear the story behind that.

>> I bought a Mac in 1998. I bought Bingo Card Creator in 2007. My Mac broke and I lost my hard drive. I bought a new Mac, but Bingo Card Creator doesn't work on it. I can't use the online version because I'm on dialup that gets charged by the minute. I want my money back.

Signed, Surprisingly Common @ AOL.com

>> Sorry to hear that. Apple changed something in 2010 or so, which makes it impossible to use the downloadable version of Bingo Card Creator on newer Macs. We unfortunately can't fix that on our end. I understand that you can't use the online version, which works on Macs and PCs. Thanks for using Bingo Card Creator for so many years, though. Tell you what, tell me your address and I'll write you a check.

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#28

I can't possibly imagine the time and energy wasted on this blog post and back and forth with the customer is worth $300. Not to mention the PR implications... you're calling your customers terrorists! Good god. You have an unhappy customer, give him his money back and move on.

Both parties have become completely entrenched "on principle" and are now acting in a way that economists wouldn't consider rational.

Maybe this is a cautionary tale? Personally, I think that both strict no-refunds policies and SEO blackmail threats are antisocial behavior.

Come on kids, you can do better than this.

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#29
post #10
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its better surmised as just anti-civilian warfare.

What? No. Terrorism is the incitement of terror within a population. Waging general, all-out war does not accomplish that goal very well - the certain risk of an invading standing army is much less terrifying than the uncertain risk of unseen agents with random but deadly agendas. The goal of war is to conquer or destroy. The goal of a terrorist is to leave a social structure intact as-is, but to spread fear and unce…

Nothing incites terror like killing innocent people. Maybe you didn't get the memo? Picking the weakest and most vulnerable (children, women, the edlerly) and adding a does of arbitrary intentionality (apparent randomness) also helps. The word 'war', in general terms, also predates and is different than your (apparent, statist) post-modern definition.

Re: We Do Not Negotiate with Terrorists

#30
I understand that ignitiondeck has a no refund policy and hence they were technically/contractually correct in not giving the refund but seriously why would you go this far calling your customers "terrorists" ? Not to mention that to save the $299, they probably spent lot more time and hence money trying to fight with this customer.

"The reason we do not offer refunds is because our products are digital in nature, and digital products can easily be copied and reproduced."

Wait, what ? As a consumer, I personally dislike companies even if digital that do not offer refunds. yes people can abuse refunds but when it comes to abusive customers, there are many things they can do to waste your time and money even if you don't give them a refund. As far as the digital part is concerned, I don't understand the argument. If they have already downloaded the stuff, then it is always open to be shared with anyone and you really cannot control that. That is the risk of doing digital business. What does that have to do with refunds ?

I am sure most customers are not abusive and refunds can sometimes be genuinely needed. This company sounds like they are trying to be too protective by having these kinds of policies.I would even go too far by saying in my opinion, strictly no-refund companies are a no no for me. Just doesn't give a trustworthy perception to me at least.

Post reply on HN