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China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

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Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#101

Post by guiomie »

olalonde wrote: post #61

According to someone on Bitcointalk.org, it might not be as bad as it seems ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=358341.msg3832549#ms... ): No. You Western guys completely misunderstood the news. To me, this is actually BULLISH! TL;DR, the document says: 1. Bitcoin is a virtual commodity, not a real currency 2. People have the freedom to trade bitcoin, but they need to take their own risk 3. At this stage, finan…

I thought the value of BTC in china was that it enables ordinary people to workaround the current financial system.

They say "It [BTC] represents an unofficial leakage to the current monetary system and trades globally" ...

So, isn't a question of time before they ban the protocol in China ? I don't see why people use BTC in China, if it isn't for the freedom (workaround) that it gives..

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#102

Post by guiomie »

wavesounds wrote: post #28
ars wrote: post #19

Pretty disappointed in this statement from Greenspan: “It has to have intrinsic value. You have to really stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. I haven’t been able to do it. Maybe somebody else can.” All money has no intrinsic value, including gold. Things have value because other people want them. That's it. People want bitcoin, then it has value. Pretty much the only thing with i…

Dollars have intrinsic value in that you can burn them to keep warm, gold you can make things out of, Bitcoins have no possible use outside of being a currency, thus no intrinsic value.

I don't think the value of Dollars have anything to do with burning them for heat, especially in this electronic age.

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#103

Post by nutate »

grey-area wrote: post #85
rms wrote: post #44

From the Google translation of the original source: "However, Bitcoin transaction as a commodity trading behavior on the Internet, ordinary people have the freedom to participate in the premise own risk." The new bitcoin policy here isn't that much more conservative than the USA's bitcoin policy, and Beijing just legalized bitcoin for ordinary citizen gamblers, speculators, savers, and options traders! This is a good…

I do find it remarkable how similar bitcoin proponents are to goldbugs - all news is good news and all drops in value are buying opportunities.

They are linked at the hip in many ways. Bitcoin is a speculative asset, but it is also a really well thought out accounting ledger and transaction protocol for that asset. Plus m-of-n transactions, watermarking, etc... lot's of cools stuff.

When people talk about the speculative nature, they tend to sound like Glenn Beck. When they talk about the technology, they sound more like techno-futurists. I like now that economists other than Austrians are getting into analyzing the possibilities. It isn't what the worst bitbugs want to hear (bitcoin taking over all currency and forcing global financial institutions to crumble), it is more contemplating how bitcoin fits into the complex monetary, financial, fiscal, etc world that already exists.

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#104

Post by nutate »

grey-area wrote: post #97
this_user wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is actually not only true for goldbugs, but for all financial bubbles. If you had asked someone about AAPL in summer of 2012, they would have told you that any specific news item was bullish. If you had asked someone about crude oil in 2008, they would have told you that any specific news would drive the price higher. It is the same pattern over and over gain. Once the goldbugs throw in the towel and admit that…

Yes, you're right, this applies equally well to the dotcom bubble, housing markets or any other bubble. Disconnects between value and price can happen in any market, and they're very hard to recognise, though if you find yourself rationalising incredibly bad news like this as having an upside or being a buying opportunity, and dismissing falls/rises of 20% in hours as normal, or claiming that an asset is inevitably g…

Interesting look at the lower bound that got a lot of bitcoiners angry. The comments are actually pretty good as the initial author did miss some of the finer points on bitcoin to which he responds in the comments.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/12/fair-price-bitcoi...

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#105

Post by cinquemb »

molf wrote: post #29
ars wrote: post #19

Pretty disappointed in this statement from Greenspan: “It has to have intrinsic value. You have to really stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. I haven’t been able to do it. Maybe somebody else can.” All money has no intrinsic value, including gold. Things have value because other people want them. That's it. People want bitcoin, then it has value. Pretty much the only thing with i…

Intrinsic value (in the context of finance) usually refers to the value of something when not used as investment or money. Gold has intrinsic value because you can use it for jewellery and electronics. A bitcoin has no intrinsic value because you only have it to get something else in return later. Physical money has intrinsic value equal to the metal or paper it's made of. Of course that is not what makes physical mo…

I thought it was pretty funny coming from grandfather sql queries.

The thing is, most of the money/credit that has ever been created (derivatives and such) makes the amount the physical money in circulation a joke in comparison. It's as if some bitcoin enthusiast decided to etch a bitcoin wallet onto gold (because that has "value" since jewellery and electronics have been deemed "valuable") and placed a fraction of a bitcoin on it compared to the total that have been mined so far.

It's also interesting that an ever so fluctuant of a social construct is used to justify existence of one thing over another thing. One would think existence alone would suffice, but I guess that is not what man seeks…

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#106

Post by joezydeco »

rms wrote: post #67
alphonse23 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bad sign for the Chinese, not the bitcoin. If the central bank doesn't regulate it's trade, they're slowing down the time it takes for Chinese to trade compared to other countries. It just means only private wealthy companies can facilitate the trades -- which is dangerous in itself. By opting out of controlling bitcoin transactions, I think the Republic of China is in some ways harming its only citize…

The CCP pervasively makes decisions that can harm its people. I didn't realize people were seriously considering the idea that the PRC was going to offer a national trade in bitcoin.

Bingo. And there's no way in hell that the CCP would let equity slip out of the country in any large amount.

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#107

Post by jackgavigan »

dcc1 wrote: post #84
molf wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intrinsic value (in the context of finance) usually refers to the value of something when not used as investment or money. Gold has intrinsic value because you can use it for jewellery and electronics. A bitcoin has no intrinsic value because you only have it to get something else in return later. Physical money has intrinsic value equal to the metal or paper it's made of. Of course that is not what makes physical mo…

Bitcoin has an intrinsic value A distributed ledger with proof of ownership that makes it impossible to forge transactions That my friends is a first in history, Greenspan and others have not realised yet the implications of this.

> A distributed ledger with proof of ownership that makes it impossible to forge transactions

All that means is that I can prove beyond any doubt that I own something that's worth nothing... :-)

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#108

Post by wyager »

jc123 wrote: post #58
w0utert wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Physical money has intrinsic value equal to the metal or paper it's made of. Of course that is not what makes physical money valuable and I am equally confused by that quote. USD/EUR/JPY currency (either physical as bank notes and coins, or electronic) has intrinsic value because it is almost universally accepted, taxable, and backed by debt that (at least in theory) will have to be repaid at some point in time. B…

Well said IMO. It's been a while since tulip mania and could bitcoin be a modern day version? Same disclaimer as above.

The tulip mania is probably a myth.

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#109

Post by wyager »

w0utert wrote: post #37
molf wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intrinsic value (in the context of finance) usually refers to the value of something when not used as investment or money. Gold has intrinsic value because you can use it for jewellery and electronics. A bitcoin has no intrinsic value because you only have it to get something else in return later. Physical money has intrinsic value equal to the metal or paper it's made of. Of course that is not what makes physical mo…

>> Physical money has intrinsic value equal to the metal or paper it's made of. Of course that is not what makes physical money valuable and I am equally confused by that quote. USD/EUR/JPY currency (either physical as bank notes and coins, or electronic) has intrinsic value because it is almost universally accepted, taxable, and backed by debt that (at least in theory) will have to be repaid at some point in time. B…

If you consider those things to bestow "intrinsic value" (a fallacious concept), the Bitcoin has "intrinsic value" because it is portable, divisible, fungible, scarce, and has all the other properties we want from a scarcity-based currency while having all the great benefits (and more) of digital fiat money.

Re: China Bans Financial Companies From Bitcoin Transactions

#110

Post by wyager »

jackgavigan wrote: post #107
dcc1 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has an intrinsic value A distributed ledger with proof of ownership that makes it impossible to forge transactions That my friends is a first in history, Greenspan and others have not realised yet the implications of this.

> A distributed ledger with proof of ownership that makes it impossible to forge transactions All that means is that I can prove beyond any doubt that I own something that's worth nothing... :-)

Only if you don't think USD, JPY, GBP, and all the products and services you can buy with BTC are worth anything either.
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