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NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

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Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#171

Post by ekianjo »

tjbiddle wrote: post #165
sebkomianos wrote: post #162

I shouldn’t be writing this. Every time I read something NSA/FBI/CIA/KGB/Interpol/MI5/Stasi related I get this instinctive feeling of angriness and sadness at the same time. We were given the “internet”, pretty much for free, and we believed it would be a fair deal? That there would be nothing in for them? When was the last time you were give something for free, can you even remember? They are breaking encryption? Re…

Reminds me of the "First they came" poem - well written post, thank you: First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

Can we stop pushing these lines everywhere, everytime there is a topic on the NSA ? It's really starting to get boring, and the OP was saying more than that anyway.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#172

Post by lwhalen »

latj wrote: post #84
qq66 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prism may have been built by people holding their noses for the paycheck, but it could also have been built by people who genuinely believe that its social benefits outweigh its costs. Even if only 0.1% of software professionals believe this, it's enough to staff the project.

I agree. Just look at who Palantir hires. I imagine its a pretty small number of nose-holders and more often people who think they are doing good and people who think spying is a necessary evil so lets put fine grained controls on it.

Slightly OT, but I remember feeling QUITE shocked when I found that one of my favorite bloggers, Rands (aka Michael Lopp), was some sort of honcho over at Palantir. He's written some good stuff on management of 'geeks' and high-performance people in general, it was a sad day when I found out about his employer and removed him from my RSS feed.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#173

Post by bwaldrep »

etiam wrote: post #140
onosendai wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people easily forget all their personal ethics when someone in authority (whether their boss or the police) tells them to do something. I don't know whether you're aware of this or not, but you just described a famous experiment which essentially arrived at the same conclusion. It's worth a read for those not familiar with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

I know of no better or more accessible review of the psychology of evil than "The Lucifer effect" (2007) by Philip Zimbardo, a psychologist who, in spite of a long and illustrious career, probably is still best known for the infamous Stanford prison study. The companion website to the book is still up on http://www.lucifereffect.com/ Zimbardo has stated that he is still pained at the memories of the Stanford prison s…

An alternate view of Zimbardo's prison study: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3025

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#174

Post by jurjenh »

Crito wrote: post #154
swalkergibson wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered the same thing privately numerous times. I believe it is a reflexive reaction because they can easily be killed doing their jobs, which they signed up for. It is some kind of bizarre "patriotic" requirement, likely borne of the significant derision heaped upon returning Vietnam veterans. Perhaps it is a generation of people who never want to see that happen again that have created this sacred cow?

Heaping derision on people who were victims themselves, drafted into a war they did not believe in, is one thing. I totally understand why people might recoil from that. With an all-volunteer army though? No way, it is on them as much as it is on anybody. I don't care if they joined for the GI Bill (doing it for the [college] money is a pretty fucking flimsy ethical justification), I don't care if they joined the res…

There is the issue though that as young people, they may well not have the maturity or information to fully understand and comprehend the decision they are making.

I was going to detail this as a possible excuse - but considering this reasoning and the consequences has made me reconsider: You've made a bad choice [morally / ethically]. Now you have to live with the consequences.

Can be seen as a tough stance, but then again, so's life. Didn't really mean to fall of that cliff? Oh, here's your life back again.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#175

Post by diminoten »

dredmorbius wrote: post #94
diminoten wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA doesn't run operations, so they didn't do either of these things either. It's a big government.

CIA does directly run ops and targeting. "The CIA's Silent War in Pakistan" http://content.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1900248,00.html "CIA drone attacks in Pakistan are responsible for unlawful killings, some of which could amount to war crimes, Amnesty International says." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24618701 "CIA Drone Strike Kills Pakistan Taliban Head Before Talks" http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2…

Have they admitted to any of these?

Does the CIA admit to even owning drones? Or are these Army operations run by the CIA?

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#176

Post by diminoten »

tjbiddle wrote: post #165
sebkomianos wrote: post #162

I shouldn’t be writing this. Every time I read something NSA/FBI/CIA/KGB/Interpol/MI5/Stasi related I get this instinctive feeling of angriness and sadness at the same time. We were given the “internet”, pretty much for free, and we believed it would be a fair deal? That there would be nothing in for them? When was the last time you were give something for free, can you even remember? They are breaking encryption? Re…

Reminds me of the "First they came" poem - well written post, thank you: First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

Who have they actually come for?

What group is no longer here because the CIA/NSA have decided they shouldn't exist?

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#177

Post by dyselon »

swalsh wrote: post #4

Meta topic, but it seems kind of rude to link to the print page. The washington post is already a very readable site, If i don't want ads, i'll use adblock.

I don't know about everyone else, but the print page still has an ad on it for me.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#178

Post by forsaken »

diminoten wrote: post #176
tjbiddle wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the "First they came" poem - well written post, thank you: First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

Who have they actually come for? What group is no longer here because the CIA/NSA have decided they shouldn't exist?

That's classified.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#179

Post by jonknee »

mjolk wrote: post #63
lignuist wrote: post #59

I know a guy who does not have a mobile phone. Sometimes I am a bit envious of him.

Why? Why are you envious of him? You can choose to only sometimes carry a phone or turn it on.

You have to do more than turning it off (unless you can pop the battery). The FBI can bug a phone and have it send audio even while turned off, I'm guessing go the NSA can pretty much so what it wants.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029-6140191.html

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#180

Post by Crito »

jurjenh wrote: post #174
Crito wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heaping derision on people who were victims themselves, drafted into a war they did not believe in, is one thing. I totally understand why people might recoil from that. With an all-volunteer army though? No way, it is on them as much as it is on anybody. I don't care if they joined for the GI Bill (doing it for the [college] money is a pretty fucking flimsy ethical justification), I don't care if they joined the res…

There is the issue though that as young people, they may well not have the maturity or information to fully understand and comprehend the decision they are making. I was going to detail this as a possible excuse - but considering this reasoning and the consequences has made me reconsider: You've made a bad choice [morally / ethically]. Now you have to live with the consequences. Can be seen as a tough stance, but the…

There is also the "smoothtalking recruiter managed to talk a teenager into doing something dumb" angle, but that only goes so far with me.

Still, I don't hate people who join or anything... call it a very strong disapprove. However I do find it hard to associate with people who try to assure me that they're one of the good ones because "Oh, I'm not really the patriotic type, I just joined so I could go to college" line. That impresses me far less than "I joined [for my country|it was the right thing to do|for the innocent civilians over there|war is a necessary evil|I was young and naive when the recruiter came to my school|911 HUURAH!]". I don't believe people when they say the former, but if I did, I don't think I could consider them anything but mercenaries.

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