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Valve joins the Linux Foundation

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Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#221

Post by xanderstrike »

archagon wrote: post #202
adamors wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> high-end Macs play games just as well as high-end Windows boxes Are you joking? Because even $2000 iMacs come with mobile GPUs. Not to mention CPUs that cannot be overclocked etc. That's comparable to a high-end gaming laptop , not a PC.

Have you been paying attention to Intel's graphics improvements? At the rate they're going, we'll have the power of (current gen) desktop graphics in just a few iterations. I think you could even make the claim that the current Iris graphics are as powerful as current-gen consoles, though you wouldn't know it from all the crappy ports and the lack of a low-level graphics API. (Also, people still overclock their CPUs?…

> we'll have the power of (current gen) desktop graphics in just a few iterations

And where will desktop graphics be after those few iterations? Several iterations more advanced. Integrated graphics will never be competitive with discreet graphics, therefore systems that do not support discreet graphics will never be competitive with those that can (in gaming, of course).

Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#223

Post by aclevernickname »

venomsnake wrote: post #183
adamors wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, you've gotta love these armchair Linux critics man.

Indeed, call a person that sincerely tries for the last 3 months to move to Linux as a daily driver armchair critic. I could live with slightly wooden DE, I could live with the fact that my speakers are buzzing while there are phones connected. The only real dealbreaker is lack of decent file search in Linux. I want something that delivers the speed of search of Everything and has realtime update. No luck so far.

Yeah, you've never used KDE before.

Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#224

Post by adamors »

archagon wrote: post #202
adamors wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> high-end Macs play games just as well as high-end Windows boxes Are you joking? Because even $2000 iMacs come with mobile GPUs. Not to mention CPUs that cannot be overclocked etc. That's comparable to a high-end gaming laptop , not a PC.

Have you been paying attention to Intel's graphics improvements? At the rate they're going, we'll have the power of (current gen) desktop graphics in just a few iterations. I think you could even make the claim that the current Iris graphics are as powerful as current-gen consoles, though you wouldn't know it from all the crappy ports and the lack of a low-level graphics API. (Also, people still overclock their CPUs?…

Perhaps they will outperform (current!) mid range GPUs at some point, but from what I understand only the most expensive processors come with beefy integrated graphics.

That means, that even if they manage to beef up their CPUs, buying a cheap i5 with a mid range GPU will cost less. Plus, you can upgrade the GPU separately etc.

Frankly, I don't see the point of APUs but it seems AMD is going in this direction as well. Rumors say they're actually discontinuing their enthusiast CPUs[1].

[1] http://www.techpowerup.com/195355/vishera-end-of-the-line-fo...

Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#225

Post by rofindesia »

Crito wrote: post #187
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's an estimated 20 million Ubuntu users worldwide, probably another 10 million or so of other Linux distros. And there's 60 million Mac users worldwide, and it was asserted that that's not enough for a good gaming platform. You can't have it both ways. If Linux is a good platform for games (and it may be), then OSX necessarily is as well.

Add to this the fact that only some fraction of those 30 million linux users are interested in gaming.

Same for OSX. Personally I'm a Windows refugee and I've been bouncing around Mint, *buntus, Deb n Arch to find my favourite and TBH I love what I see. Valve has done great work on their Linux Steam client.

I foresee a few blockbuster games being ported for Linux and Valve using some great marketing for it to win PC gamers over. Eventually it will become the preferred platform. Unlike OSX, Linux isn't hardware locked and CAN spread like wildfire.

Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#226

Post by adamors »

archagon wrote: post #200
adamors wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wrong with gaming laptops, it's just that both their performance and the experience they provide pales in comparison to a PC. (A PC that costs less, mind you.) I mean, you cannot realistically say that you can have an immersive experience on a 15 inch, 1600x900 monitor when it comes to graphically intensive games. Also, with CPU bound games like Arma overclocking can result in a difference of 15-20 fp…

This is a rather shortsighted view. Integrated graphics are rapidly catching up to desktop cards. The built-in Iris is enough to play games like TF2 with high settings, while the 15" Macbook Pro's 750M is half as powerful as my desktop AMD 6850! Furthermore, desktop PCs are getting ousted by laptops, to the point where I barely know anyone with a desktop anymore. In my view, PC gaming will have to adapt to this new e…

> The enthusiasts who suggest spending $500 every year just to catch up with all the poorly optimized ports aren't helping.

You are clearly out of the loop when it comes to PC gaming, I suggest we stop this discussion before you start saying even more embarrassing things.

Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#227

Post by xanderstrike »

Skoofoo wrote: post #125
kayoone wrote: post #7

While this is great, its a bit sad that Valve is mostly doing all of this now, because they fear losing their dominance on windows to the native Store in Win 8.x In the end its a win-win for everyone if it works out, just their motives are questionable.

Before Windows 8, Valve seemingly couldn't care less about Linux! It bothers me how Valve tries to make itself out to be Linux's best friend nowadays. They also talk about open source a lot despite them ever releasing only proprietary software.

Leaks from years ago show that the Steam client and Source have both had Linux versions in development since around the time of the Mac beta in 2010 (two years before Windows 8) [0]. Also they've supported Linux servers forever, so you can hardly say they couldn't care less. Also also, haven't they pushed some stuff upstream and spurred interest and development in open source drivers? That's more than many companies that publish proprietary software on Linux.

Windows 8 may have pushed them over the line, and they may only be moving to Linux in order to make more money. Is that really a problem though? I think it's the breakthrough into the mainstream that Linux has been waiting for for decades.

[0] http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=valve_ste...

Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#228

Post by archagon »

xanderstrike wrote: post #221
archagon wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been paying attention to Intel's graphics improvements? At the rate they're going, we'll have the power of (current gen) desktop graphics in just a few iterations. I think you could even make the claim that the current Iris graphics are as powerful as current-gen consoles, though you wouldn't know it from all the crappy ports and the lack of a low-level graphics API. (Also, people still overclock their CPUs?…

> we'll have the power of (current gen) desktop graphics in just a few iterations And where will desktop graphics be after those few iterations? Several iterations more advanced. Integrated graphics will never be competitive with discreet graphics, therefore systems that do not support discreet graphics will never be competitive with those that can (in gaming, of course).

Discrete graphics are expensive, noisy, hot, and suck up tons of power. Upgrading your graphics card used to make a huge impact, but each successive generation now yields less and less improvement. (Carmack himself said in the most recent keynote that there probably won't be any "wow!" moments from graphics upgrades ever again.) Furthermore, some of the best looking games of the past few years (Super Mario Galaxy) were designed to run on one of the weakest systems around. As fun as it is to flip every switch in Crysis or Metro, I don't think most gamers care that much about diffuse lighting and ambient occlusion. We're at the point where things really do look "good enough" for all but the nitpicky, and I say this as a PC gamer for 20 years.

Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#229

Post by archagon »

adamors wrote: post #226
archagon wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a rather shortsighted view. Integrated graphics are rapidly catching up to desktop cards. The built-in Iris is enough to play games like TF2 with high settings, while the 15" Macbook Pro's 750M is half as powerful as my desktop AMD 6850! Furthermore, desktop PCs are getting ousted by laptops, to the point where I barely know anyone with a desktop anymore. In my view, PC gaming will have to adapt to this new e…

> The enthusiasts who suggest spending $500 every year just to catch up with all the poorly optimized ports aren't helping. You are clearly out of the loop when it comes to PC gaming, I suggest we stop this discussion before you start saying even more embarrassing things.

Up to you.

Re: Valve joins the Linux Foundation

#230

Post by Crito »

rofindesia wrote: post #225
Crito wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add to this the fact that only some fraction of those 30 million linux users are interested in gaming.

Same for OSX. Personally I'm a Windows refugee and I've been bouncing around Mint, *buntus, Deb n Arch to find my favourite and TBH I love what I see. Valve has done great work on their Linux Steam client. I foresee a few blockbuster games being ported for Linux and Valve using some great marketing for it to win PC gamers over. Eventually it will become the preferred platform. Unlike OSX, Linux isn't hardware locked…

The only way I see Linux gaming becoming "the thing" is if it cannibalizes Windows gaming. I think that even if all new games have first-class Linux editions, that will still be a difficult future to realize since you will still have legacy games that are Windows only (and wine will never become anything but a rounding error in that regard. Not in the next few years anyway, maybe 10+ years out playing games in Windows VMs on Linux will become reasonable...)
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