How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life • Hacker News Board

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#51

Post by aestra » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #25

brianbreslin wrote: post #22

Slightly (only slightly) off-topic: what is it going to take for us to see a complete or at least large overhaul of the justice system in the US? We're incarcerating too many people for minor crimes and it is causing a ripple effect on poverty and economic growth (not to mention ruining TONS of people's lives).

Can you be more specific? What minor crimes are you talking about? What's the breakdown of crimes for the the current prison population? Have any references to articles that have a deeper discussion so we can come up to speed?

It is well know the US has the highest rate of incarceration in the world. Both per capita and by sheer numbers. All the breakdown you can ever ask for is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...

This part is what people are usually talking about:

Violent crime was not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States from 1980 to 2003. Violent crime rates had been relatively constant or declining over those decades. The prison population was increased primarily by public policy changes causing more prison sentences and lengthening time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release. These policies were championed as protecting the public from serious and violent offenders, but instead yielded high rates of confinement for nonviolent offenders. Nearly three quarters of new admissions to state prison were convicted of nonviolent crimes. 49 percent of sentenced state inmates were held for violent offenses. Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#52

Post by girvo » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:36 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #45

girvo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP itself says that the prosecutor (now Judge) being convicted was a huge change in procedure. It never happens. Based on your posts here, I'm getting the feeling that you are okay with the criminal justice system in the USA. You ask a lot of questions, I want to know what your stance is (honestly, I do!).

I don't have a stance. Like most people, it's not something that I really give much thought to. I'm trying to cut through the storm of complaining so I can get to the facts. What problems are you trying to solve beyond the fact that we never want someone who is innocent to go to jail?

Personally, my opinion is that prosecutors have incentives that don't align with the good of society (if we take "Innocent people should not go to jail" as a good thing, and a worthy goal). Their incentives are to convict as many people as possible; this case we're discussing is a good example of that effect.

If you take a look at this[0], you can see that per capita incarceration in the US has grown a lot, especially over the past 30 years. So its not a baseless accusation we're talking about here. There is something driving it, and if you do a bit more research on the topic (I studied Law, so this interests me a lot), you'll find a lot more backing it up as well.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1...

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#53

Post by girvo » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:37 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #44

csmuk wrote: post #6

Re proesecutor: "He also agreed to a $500 fine, 500 hours of community service, and the loss of his law license, according to the Innocence Project, a legal clinic affiliated with Yeshiva University's Cardozo Law School." Sorry not enough. This is one place that "an eye for an eye" should be used. Screw Ghandi's opinion on the subject. The guy was an asshole through and through who ruined two people's already ruined…

I will never understand punishment-crazy people. His career was destroyed. That seems like a large enough disincentive to me. I cannot imagine that worse punishment would lead to better outcomes. It seems to me rather that if you want to fight this you should look elsewhere. Punishing this person harder doesn’t seem like a solution to me.

Depends. Hopefully his punishment will become a standard, the article discusses how this is unprecedented. If it becomes standard, hopefully it is enough of a disincentive to balance out the prosecutors incentive to withhold evidence and push for convictions in all cases, as it stands now.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#54

Post by brazzy » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

girvo wrote: post #48

brazzy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP is calling for a disproportionate sentence. 25 years is more than many murderers get. It seems reasonable to you because you are in fact judging this case emotionally, not reasonably. Your empathy towards the victim causes you to want revenge, believing it to be justice.

People in power over the rest of us should be held to higher standards. That should be the trade-off. As it stands, it is not the case, and there are few consequences for actions like these. That should change. Oh, and by gunning for Mr Morton, the actual murderer went free, and killed someone else.

> Oh, and by gunning for Mr Morton, the actual murderer went free, and killed someone else.

This is something that should be told again and again and again to the juries in murder trials.

I think it's just as much a scandal that the jury convicted Morton without substantial evidence as that the prosecutor withheld potentially exonerating evidence.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#55

Post by csmuk » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #44

csmuk wrote: post #6

Re proesecutor: "He also agreed to a $500 fine, 500 hours of community service, and the loss of his law license, according to the Innocence Project, a legal clinic affiliated with Yeshiva University's Cardozo Law School." Sorry not enough. This is one place that "an eye for an eye" should be used. Screw Ghandi's opinion on the subject. The guy was an asshole through and through who ruined two people's already ruined…

I will never understand punishment-crazy people. His career was destroyed. That seems like a large enough disincentive to me. I cannot imagine that worse punishment would lead to better outcomes. It seems to me rather that if you want to fight this you should look elsewhere. Punishing this person harder doesn’t seem like a solution to me.

I'm suggesting that he needs to be accountable on his own terms for his actions and should be held to the same standards as his judgement.

It's not a big deal for him as a prosecutor. Perhaps it'll be uncomfortable for a bit but the real story is:

$500 fine. Acceptable risk.

500 hours community service. Acceptable risk.

Struck off... Acceptable risk.

Why?

His career was certainly not destroyed. He can quite happily fall into a cosy job in a corporate back office as a legal consultant through his contact network and still get a nice pension.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#56

Post by girvo » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

brazzy wrote: post #49

girvo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not angry, I'm upset. More to the point, the prosecutor is guilty, which is why he received 10 days in jail. I'm expressing that that should have been a larger punishment for the anguish he caused, and admitted to. On top of that, this time they have a stack of evidence, enough to exonerate someone, and the prosecutors actions got another person killed . Very different circumstances, in my opinion. I do agree wit…

I agree that 10 days is too litte, but note that it's part of a deal which cost him his law license and highly prestigious (and paid) job as a judge. That's the real punishment.

Agreed with you there; I only hope that this continues moving forward. It's fairly unprecedented that a prosecutor would have this happen. It's not really about punishment as it is disincentive... I hope its enough to stop future Mr Moretons from having their lives ruined.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#57

Post by brazzy » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

girvo wrote: post #47

brazzy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that those who lynched some black dude whenever a white woman was murdered in the 1900s South also often sincerely believed there was no shortage of evidence. The problem is that people let outrage over the seriousness of the crime guide both their evaluation of evidence and demand for punishment. Their want their offended sense of justice to be assuaged, but this leads to greater and greater injustice, as p…

Yes, that happens. This is really not that case. The prosecutors actions lead to someone else getting killed. These are known facts, and not really up for debate. More to the point, without consequences for their actions, prosecutors have an incentive to do this stuff.

Then that incentive should perhaps be removed rather than trying to add a negative incentive to prevent its abuse. There should be a better way to choose prosecutors for promotion than winning high-profile trials.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#58

Post by VLM » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:44 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #20

forktheif wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, we should fix the systems that allow miscarriages of justice like this to happen. Yet revenge seems to be the first motivation of most people. Making things worse instead of making things better.

We should, but part of fixing the system that allows these things to happen is penalizing "bad actors." The prosecutor hid evidence from the judge, not just the defense. In addition, a brutal murderer is still free among the populace. What if they've killed again in the interim?

"What if they've killed again in the interim?"

That happened. The actual murderer killed another woman before he was caught. The cost to society is not just 25 years of this dudes life but add one dead woman to the list.

Of course you can't prove that merely exonerating one dude would somehow have automagically resulted in the cops catching the actual killer.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#59

Post by brazzy » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:50 PM UTC

csmuk wrote: post #26

forktheif wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, we should fix the systems that allow miscarriages of justice like this to happen. Yet revenge seems to be the first motivation of most people. Making things worse instead of making things better.

It's not about revenge. Our motivation to not do things is driven by consequences. When the balance of power exists so that those who determine consequences for people can do so out of self-interest, they need to be held up to the same standards and face equal consequences themselves. The prosecutor should have a sentence passed against him to ensure others do not follow suit with "$500 and 500 hours community servic…

People are really good at ignoring consequences and believing that they won't get caught, or are justified to break the rules.

I'd say it's much better to change the system so that it's not in a prosecutor's self interest to convict as many people as possible.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#60

Post by wil421 » Wed, Dec 04, 2013, 2:51 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #45

girvo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP itself says that the prosecutor (now Judge) being convicted was a huge change in procedure. It never happens. Based on your posts here, I'm getting the feeling that you are okay with the criminal justice system in the USA. You ask a lot of questions, I want to know what your stance is (honestly, I do!).

I don't have a stance. Like most people, it's not something that I really give much thought to. I'm trying to cut through the storm of complaining so I can get to the facts. What problems are you trying to solve beyond the fact that we never want someone who is innocent to go to jail?

I would like the police and legal system to stop looking at everyone like criminals. The concept of innocent until proven guilty is not a view seen by these people, if they come across you, youre guilty.

Once I had some legal problems that got dropped, years later while applying for a permit for work at the police station, I was questioned about this incident and turned down for what I was applying for. There isnt anything on my record for this except an incident report the courts dropped it why should I still be looked down upon.