The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
21–30 of 65 posts
Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#22I'm so tired of every Tom, Dick, and Harry throwing his hat in the ring to declare Bitcoin worthless. Can't we just agree that this is a new thing nobody quite understands and stop making prognostications about it's value or lack thereof? Let those of us who are interested in furthering the Bitcoin economy do so unencumbered by pundits.
These posts are entirely the result of authors who didn't buy bitcoins when they were cheap. They want it to fail, and try to find any flaws in it that they can, because if it succeeds then they'll really feel like shit because they missed out. There is extreme bias in the news community (on both sides) because of their investment (or lack thereof)... And possibly a certain amount of attempted market manipulation as…
That's nonsense. The post is a result of applying a particular economic theory of how money works to something that is apparently trying to be a form of money. This theory of money might be wrong in general, or it might for some reason not apply to bitcoin specifically. But to dismiss it simply as "bias" is willed stupidity - it is a way of avoiding addressing the actual arguments put forward in the post.
(The specific theory being drawn on in that post is called Modern Monetary Theory; it isn't generally accepted by mainstream economists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory )
Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#23Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#24"Bitcoins are Purely Speculative Assets" would be an excellent line from the article to use as a title. Or perhaps as a comment put it: "Bitcoins are an Intangible Commodity Asset"
Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#25You can provably destroy bitcoins by sending them to an address with no private key (this is provable). Believe it or not, this is actually useful for stuff like http://www.proofofexistence.com/
Hence the premise of this article, even if you take the underlying economic theory at face-value, is flawed.
Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#26To follow the logic of this article, it could just as easily be titled "the fair price of gold is zero." Gold billion has no value as a monetary instrument. But obviously it, like Bitcoin, has value as a unit of account because it is scarce.
Note that saying it has no fair price as a currency by no means implies it's worthless. It's just that its worth is purely speculative like any intangible asset like art, intellectual property (e.g.: patents), wine (or at least "valuable" wine whose cost bears no resemblance to how much it cost to produce).
Think of it this way: bitcoin isn't a currency you buy goods with; bitcoin is a commodity you barter with. It's just a far more convenient commodity than chunks of gold or pieces of art.
Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#27It's littered with idiosyncratic phrases and simply incorrect definitions. For example:
> Second, all financial instruments have a fair value that is defined as the discount value of future streams of monetary payments.
There's a grain of truth in there. Let's give the correct definition from Wikipedia:
> In finance, discounted cash flow (DCF) analysis is a method of valuing a project, company, or asset using the concepts of the time value of money. All future cash flows are estimated and discounted to give their present values (PVs)—the sum of all future cash flows, both incoming and outgoing, is the net present value (NPV), which is taken as the value or price of the cash flows in question.
In other words, it's nothing to do with "financial instruments"; it's how you value any asset. And it's not the "fair value" it's just one of many ways of valuing things. And it's not "the discount value" (as if there were only one), nor is it just "monetary payments"; rather it's all cash flows, in every direction, each one discounted appropriately.
And so on, and so forth. The author makes a big point of arguing that they aren't financial instruments so much as they are real assets. There's some truth to this; if I own a bitcoin nobody is obligated to give me anything in exchange; it doesn't exist as a liability on anyone's balance sheet. And? The same is true of a gold ingot. Or, largely, or a share of Apple stock; nobody is obligated to give you anything for that share. By the same logic, the "fair" value of gold (or Apple stock) is zero. Hell, the same logic would indicate the fair value of a Euro is zero. After all, nobody is actually obligated to give me anything for a Euro. I don't live in the EU, I have no EU debts, and no stores around here accept Euros. It's worthless! Except, you know, for the part where there's a large, liquid market where I can trade Euros for my local currency.
> Now what is the fair value of a bitcoin? It does not provide any income (Y = 0), it has no maturity given that it is not a financial instrument. For the sake of argument, we might assume that their maturity is infinite because we are stuck with them forever once they are created.
Taken literally, this means that you cannot sell a bitcoin. I would suggest that this is not true. You can actually sell bitcoins. People do this every day! In which case we plug in the expected value of the future sale in his fancy equation, discount it appropriately to account for the time value of money and the uncertainty of how much I'll get when I sell it, and find that...
...bitcoins aren't worthless. Huh, who knew?
Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#28Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#29The Fair Price of an Ounce of Gold is Zero! Since there's no issuer of an ounce of gold it can't be worth anything. Q.E.D. EDIT: Some context: "First, all financial instruments are accounting creatures. They are the asset of the bearer and the liability of the issuer. Gold coins were the liability of, e.g., the King, Federal Reserve notes are liability of the Federal Reserve, and coins are the liability of the Treasu…
So what can you make out of your bitcoins when you melt them down? The argument of the post is that gold-as-money is worth more than gold-as-commodity, and, if gold doesn't have an issuer, its value falls to that of the physical commodity. Because bitcoin, unlike gold, has no use except as a medium of exchange, if a bitcoin's value fell in the same way in the absence of an issuer, unlike gold, bitcoin's value would f…
My point wasn't so much that money has to be a commodity with an underlying value. It was to point out that the notion that "money is an asset to the holder and a liability to the issuer" might be the author's definition of money, but it's not THE ONLY RIGHT definition of money.
If gold can effectively be money, sans minting into coins that means that the earth is the issuer. Do we "owe" the earth an ounce of gold by virtue of having mined it? If so, do we then "owe" the earth a ton of steel for every ton we extract? And what happens if/when that gold or steel leaves the earth on one of the Voyager probes?
I'm making absurd arguments to point out that the author's definition of money is absurd. I'm not trying to troll but to illustrate a point. I think his definition of money works fine when you're issuing bills or notes, but it breaks down when people are using commodity money with none of the "debt" part that gets brought to play with notes.
When people start issuing paper notes redeemable for bitcoins then I'll accept the author's definition of money. But right now people are trading the actual commodity itself so his definition of money falls flat in this circumstance.
Re: The Fair Price of a Bitcoin is Zero
#30The Fair Price of an Ounce of Gold is Zero! Since there's no issuer of an ounce of gold it can't be worth anything. Q.E.D. EDIT: Some context: "First, all financial instruments are accounting creatures. They are the asset of the bearer and the liability of the issuer. Gold coins were the liability of, e.g., the King, Federal Reserve notes are liability of the Federal Reserve, and coins are the liability of the Treasu…
So what can you make out of your bitcoins when you melt them down? The argument of the post is that gold-as-money is worth more than gold-as-commodity, and, if gold doesn't have an issuer, its value falls to that of the physical commodity. Because bitcoin, unlike gold, has no use except as a medium of exchange, if a bitcoin's value fell in the same way in the absence of an issuer, unlike gold, bitcoin's value would f…