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Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

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Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you elaborate on what's so terrible about his coding style?

There are lots of problems with it. Here are a couple: He uses poor OpenGL practices, and sees poor performance as a result. He also designed the entire product in a way that makes it cumbersome to mod, without a consistent interface or a logical way for mods to work together. Modding Minecraft as a whole is one big hack. I'm more familiar with the networking side of things. The Minecraft networking protocol is a mes…

You don't seem to understand or have experience with how game code is written.

It's not written to be "modified". It's not written with a specific modular outcome in mind. It's more often than not a one-off messy code that gets the job done, because that's the requirements and the pace of the industry.

And, especially for something like Minecraft, it has to be original and even explore the problem space and ideas in the process of building it. It's not something you do based on a design carved in stone, with some cushy strict waterfall method or what have you.

Building games, and especially such games, is an explorative process, and one-off process, and a war on many fronts (e.g with time, or with tons of competing gameplay ideas).

You are only able to say what you say, because you look at the code in hindsight.

Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#72
post #8

I don't want to criticise the blub essay too much because there were some valid points in there. But in fairness as soon as I read it I thought of John Carmack. He uses C++. Given that the perspective of the essay is Lisp then if C++ isn't a blub I don't know what is. But John Carmack is really productive. Also he doesn't use vi or emacs. He uses an IDE! He used it even before it had any bells or whistles at all. (He…

For the confused, blub is the hypothetical language from pg's essay Beating the Averages: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

Well, it's just an essay. Not something even remotely proven.

A computer SCIENTIST should scorn the use of the "blub" notion as something that holds a priori.

Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#73
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A terrible terrible coder? That's a really insulting negative tone. Maybe he is not the best but he is clearly not terrible. Out of all the programmers in the world my guess would be that he is easily in the top 1-5% even if he leaves messy code behind.

No, he really is terrible. I'm dead serious. I am responsible for working with his crap all the time, and I probably know more about the technical workings of Minecraft than even he does. Notch writes terrible code.

Sorry to break it to you, but this is the reaction of most people working on others code. It all looks like a bunch of crap held together with duct tape and string when you are the one trying to maintain it or make it do something that wasn't thought about when it was designed.

Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#75
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of a person even idolizes someone for writing great code? Steve Jobs couldn't code at all. Facebook was written in PHP. GroupOn started on WordPress. According to this Slashdot article, Sergey and Larry aren't great programmers. http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/13/11/01/1324209/larry-p... The Instagram founders didn't have a programming background: http://thenextweb.com/2012/04/10/instagrams-ceo-had-no-f…

> What kind of a person even idolizes someone for writing great code? Are we on the same site? I've been reading HN since it was called Startup News, and I have never felt such a disconnect before. > The Instagram founders didn't have a programming background Instagram could be worth a trillion dollars and I wouldn't give a shit about it. Show me the code. Satisfy me intellectually. Not everything is about money, and…

Beats me. I guess someday when you're an old man, right before you close your eyes for the last time, you can imagine all that cool code that you wrote, and say what a great life you had. You were a hacker.

Steve, Larry, Notch, and the Instagram guys can know what they did made a difference. The world is a different place because they lived. They connected the important dots and hacked life...

Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#76
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, uhm... how many blockbuster games have you shipped, just out of curiosity? Not an ad hominem attack. Just, curious, because someone with such confident opinions as yours about notch's abilities must surely have shipped a few.

I wouldn't call Britney Spears the pinnacle of contemporary arts. But she certainly shipped.

Not the same at all! We're talking about Notch's process. I don't think there's any disagreement about his product being top notch (sorry). The product of BS is well, BS, and her process be damned.

Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#77
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of a person even idolizes someone for writing great code? Steve Jobs couldn't code at all. Facebook was written in PHP. GroupOn started on WordPress. According to this Slashdot article, Sergey and Larry aren't great programmers. http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/13/11/01/1324209/larry-p... The Instagram founders didn't have a programming background: http://thenextweb.com/2012/04/10/instagrams-ceo-had-no-f…

> What kind of a person even idolizes someone for writing great code? Are we on the same site? I've been reading HN since it was called Startup News, and I have never felt such a disconnect before. > The Instagram founders didn't have a programming background Instagram could be worth a trillion dollars and I wouldn't give a shit about it. Show me the code. Satisfy me intellectually. Not everything is about money, and…

It's not about money, it's about providing value. Beautiful code that solves the wrong problem is just broken, because it doesn't do what it sets out to do. I don't see much beauty in code that's broken like that.

"For every complex problem there's an answer that's clear, simple, and wrong."

Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#78
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A terrible terrible coder? That's a really insulting negative tone. Maybe he is not the best but he is clearly not terrible. Out of all the programmers in the world my guess would be that he is easily in the top 1-5% even if he leaves messy code behind.

No, he really is terrible. I'm dead serious. I am responsible for working with his crap all the time, and I probably know more about the technical workings of Minecraft than even he does. Notch writes terrible code.

Can you give a couple of concrete examples of why he's so terrible? Or at least the areas in which he is not strong. Because it's clear to me that Minecraft was a fun and stable experience from the end users perspective, at least when I bought it (which was probably a good 18 months after the initial launch).

Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He is a terrible, terrible coder. I've had an idea brewing in my head for quite some time, and while I still don't quite have the words to express it completely, it more or less boils down to this: There isn't necessarily a correlation between being a good programmer and shipping a successful product. Now of course we can argue over the definition of "good programmer" and "successful product". I started as a hobby…

The great is the enemy of the good.

Aka "worse is better," aka "New Jersey style"

Re: Notch, WebGL, Dart, and ramping up quickly

#80
post #9

Now I feel bad for slowing up my current pet project by getting bogged down writing polygon collision detection when axis aligned bounding boxes would have done for prototyping. (I'm not as quick as Notch!)

Interesting. I've recently set aside a ThreeJS project. I'm not a math wiz but even with Three, you still need some idea about matricies, vectors and even quaternions. The way you're "supposed" to do collision detection with Three is with raycasting, so more fun with vectors and matricies. I thought I had scaled down enough other things for prototyping but perhaps there was more room than what I thought.

You might want to take a look at our product, PlayCanvas. We've tried to do all the maths for you, so you don't have to. :-)
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