Perhaps, but what's definitely not working is the guaranteed loans from governments, which gives universities access to virtually unlimited funds. If the government wouldn't give loans for college, US tuitions would probably be 10x less, just like they are even in the most expensive universities in Europe or elsewhere.
The college-for-all model isn't working
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Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#12A discussion on an EconTalk podcast about trends in college education resonated with me. They discussed college as being an extended adolescence for many students: today many students treat it as an expensive way to find one's way in the world and learn about oneself whereas going back 20 or 30 years it was more about improving your employment prospects. They cited as evidence the doubling of psychology undergraduate degrees (nice for learning about oneself, but lacking a corresponding increase in jobs available) granted over a period where STEM degrees remained flat. A similar doubling in performing and visual arts degrees was another trend they contrasted to STEM degree popularity stagnation. The podcast is at http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/12/tabarrok_on_inn.htm...
Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#13What college for all model? What we have is not college for all, not even close. We have capitalistic college education; where it costs as much as the market will bear, and the ability of the market is distorted by massive student loans which kids are told they have to get as it is an investment into their future. College for all would be if college was free to every high school graduate, and costs were kept down by…
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Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#14"Meanwhile, companies in a range of sectors — manufacturing, construction, healthcare and other STEM fields — report severe skilled labor shortages." Construction and manufacturing have severe labor shortages? I'd love to see a source for that claim. In my neck of the woods, they still haven't recovered from the recession.
They have skilled labor shortages at the prices they're willing to pay. Every time you hear an employer claim they can't find someone for a position, inquire about the salary they're offering.
Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#15Perhaps, but what's definitely not working is the guaranteed loans from governments, which gives universities access to virtually unlimited funds. If the government wouldn't give loans for college, US tuitions would probably be 10x less, just like they are even in the most expensive universities in Europe or elsewhere.
Exactly. If only I could upvote you a million times.
Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#16It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree.
We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally, but more than anything we lack better methods of certification in most jobs. We need certification that matters, is widely accepted, and that employers actually trust. It has to be marketed well, and it has to actually produce graduates with up-to-date skills. It's not easy, especially in fields where curriculum must change yearly.
Underlying all of this is a larger, unavoidable change taking place: the disappearance of unskilled work. Computers and machines are slowly taking over every unskilled job, starting at the least skilled and moving upwards to things we used to think of as skilled labor. Taxi drivers and factory workers will hardly exist in 10 years. Construction workers will only supervise machines in our lifetimes. Unless you want to work in a low-paying retail job for the rest of your life, you need to get a degree so you can work your way up some corporate ladder - or so the thinking goes.
Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#17This has been a problem here in California for a while now. Schools push kids into a college track, even though they are not going to be successful. This has caused the state universities and community colleges to take in larger amounts of students which stretches budgets and also has caused the graduation rates to decline. Many of these students would be better served by a vocational school, but it seems that there has been a stigma placed on students who don't want to go to a university.
Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#18College-for-all is fine, and probably an inevitable pursuit. What's not working is the college administrative model.
Do you expect junior colleges to deny admission? You pay the fees and get degrees.
They should not be giving out these student loans so easily.
Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#19It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally,…
> It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree.
Yes and yes I wasted the first two years in college learning High School 2.0 and the last 2 learning technical concepts that people used 5-10 years ago. XHTML, CGI and using tables for layouts to name a few.
Re: The college-for-all model isn't working
#20"Meanwhile, companies in a range of sectors — manufacturing, construction, healthcare and other STEM fields — report severe skilled labor shortages." Construction and manufacturing have severe labor shortages? I'd love to see a source for that claim. In my neck of the woods, they still haven't recovered from the recession.
They have skilled labor shortages at the prices they're willing to pay. Every time you hear an employer claim they can't find someone for a position, inquire about the salary they're offering.
This type of bullshit seems to be widely believed on HN.
I work in the engineering department of a software company and I'm closely involved with recruitment and interviews. I'll tell you this: the vast majority of people (over 95%) we turn down are unqualified, period. Meaning, we wouldn't hire them even at half the salary level advertised for the position. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're willing to pay - our salaries are actually very generous and we aren't afraid to pay someone what they are actually worth. The problem is we can't actually find people like that. So yes, from our perspective (250+ person tech company in SoCal), the talent shortage is very, very real.