Live data from Hacker News

No Girls Allowed

polygon.com

101–110 of 240 posts

Re: No Girls Allowed

#101
post #37

Is there any non-anecdotal evidence that marketing has anywhere near the power this article ascribes to it? I hear this a lot lately. Some people believe that media have an almost magical power of shaping culture and behaviours. Beauty? Cosmo propaganda. Boys liking different toys than girls? Marketing. Yet when you dig a little deeper, studies on priming usually get wee p-values and barely significant, temporary cha…

Having a daughter about the same age so it gives me a bit of insight. She doesn't get to watch TV. Her playgroup has no major bias towards pink for girls (actually even deliberate in their avoidance of such stereotyping). My wife secretly detests pink and girly stuff and is/was a tomboy at heart. We do not discourage or encourage any particular colour or style. There are no obvious factors in my daughter's life that…

There are no obvious factors in my daughter's life that should bias her towards pink girly toys, yet she is absolutely obsessed with girly pink clothes and toys.

Does she go to school yet?

Re: No Girls Allowed

#102
Although the site looks snazzy, it's annoying that page-down goes one line too far.

Page-down. Huh? Oh. Line-up. Ah.

Page-down. Huh? Oh. Line-up. Ah.

. . .

Frustrating reading experience that distracts from the message.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#103

As a parent of two pre-school girls, this is a concern of mine. But in some ways I think this issue is worse for boys than girls. Girls are "allowed" (but not encouraged) to shop from the boys section. My daughters have and use some boys' clothing, toys, furniture, etc. But a boy wearing pink clothes or dancing or playing with dolls is setting himself up for extended teasing.

I was in a heated debate about this few nights ago and a drunken conclusion was that Tesla was right and women are due to dominate pretty soon.

Amongst the terms in the winning argument lines were, in no particular order: trousers, Candy Crush Saga, online marketing, e-commerce, uterus, toys, hipsters, self-modification.

Biker dudes will be a museum exhibit in 50 years.

All arguments fall flat on its face if we're due severe population cut due to war, disease, whatever.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#104
I'm not seeing the big issue being raised here. I think much of how a child turns out in life depends on their parents.

My wife likes pink, but she's also better at repairing cars, playing video games, repairing smart phones and target shooting than myself. She would be an awesome programmer or system admin, but likes project management and people more than I do. She is the one in her family that bought the gaming consoles starting with the NES.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#105

Is there any non-anecdotal evidence that marketing has anywhere near the power this article ascribes to it? I hear this a lot lately. Some people believe that media have an almost magical power of shaping culture and behaviours. Beauty? Cosmo propaganda. Boys liking different toys than girls? Marketing. Yet when you dig a little deeper, studies on priming usually get wee p-values and barely significant, temporary cha…

Diamonds. > Americans exchange diamond rings as part of the engagement process, because in 1938 De Beers decided that they would like us to. Prior to a stunningly successful marketing campaign 1938, Americans occasionally exchanged engagement rings, but wasn’t a pervasive occurrence. http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-b... I think it's naive to think that marketing doesn't in some way shape an…

Diamonds have a slightly more complex role than just being conjured from thin air by marketing.

Premarital sex is not, popular opinion to the contrary, a new discovery. In most societies we know of, however, men prefer to marry women who have never slept with anyone else. This creates a problem. Unmarried women are reluctant to have sex for fear that it will lower their ability to find a suitable husband, and as a result unmarried men have difficulty finding women to sleep with.

One traditional solution to this problem is for unmarried couples to sleep together on the understanding that if the woman gets pregnant the man will marry her. This practice was sufficiently common in a number of societies for which we have data that between a quarter and half of all brides went to the altar pregnant.

One problem with this practice is that it creates an opportunity for opportunistic breach by the man, the strategy of seduce and abandon familiar in folk songs, romantic literature, and real life. That problem can be reduced by converting the understanding into an enforceable contract. Under traditional common law, a jilted bride could sue for breach of promise to marry. The damages she could collect reflected the reduction in her future marital prospects. They were in fact, although not in form, damages for loss of virginity.

Starting in the 1930's, U.S. courts became increasingly reluctant to recognize the action for breach of promise to marry, with the result that between 1935 and 1945 it was abolished in states containing about half the population. This created a problem for women who wanted to engage in premarital sex but did not want to end up as single mothers in a society where that status was both economically difficult and heavily stigmatized.

The solution they found was described in "Rings and Promises," an ingenious article by Margaret Brinig. The practice of a man giving his intended a valuable diamond engagement ring is not, De Beers' ads to the contrary, an ancient custom. Data for diamond imports in the early part of the century are not very good, but Brinig's conclusion from such information as she was able to find was that the practice only became common in the 1930's, peaked in the 1950's and has since declined.

Her explanation was that the engagement ring served as a performance bond for the promise to marry. Instead of suing, the jilted bride could simply keep the ring, confiscating the posted bond. The practice eventually declined not because of further legal changes—at present no states recognize the action for breach of promise to marry—but as a result of social changes. As pre-marital sex became more common and virginity of less importance on the marriage market, the risk of opportunistic breach, and thus the need for a bonding mechanism, declined.

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Laws_Order_draft/laws_order_ch...

So there was an opening market for something that could be construed as both romantic and serve a strictly financial purpose. Diamonds could fit that bill, and DeBeers deftly latched onto it and milked it hard.

I think marketing has power to shape and inform already existing needs and desires, but it has extremely limited power to create need where none exists. That is, you can plausibly make me want a BigMac over a Whopper, but you can't make be want a burger if I'm already full.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#106

I like the article. I think it's well written, an important subject, and the world would be better if more people read it and digested its message. I still wish it didn't repeat the myth that Coca-Cola invented the modern image of Santa Clause, though. http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/santa/cocacola.asp

You can't fool me. There ain't no Sanity Clause!

Re: No Girls Allowed

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah there. Even when a child is 1 or 2, they start to exhibit the traits that show what they want. Way before they have any peer group, before they can be advertised at etc etc. Girls want to care for things, communicate, etc, and boys want to blow stuff up or build stuff. It's preprogrammed into our DNA.

Whoa. Programmed into our DNA, that's a pretty extraordinary claim. Consider feral children: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_children#Reality http://planetark.org/wen/53118 > "When carers leave the room, the girl jumps at the door and barks," the police said. An extreme example I admit, but if it's preprogrammed into out DNA shouldn't she be "caring for things" instead?

No, because an anecdote does not data make.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#108
i am a liberal fan of freedom and equal rights - within reason.

i applaud the sentiment but this is just one of many symptoms of 'women don't like taking risks and don't like stem fields'

whats more i like to think that women are allowed that freedom of choice - so its a double edged sword.

the side effects suck but these scenarios /come from/ freedom and equal opportunities for women. why is nobody looking at cultures which are oppressive to women or have lower quality of life as counter examples? not only do they not have this kind of marketing... but actually more women enter stem fields and do 'male' traditional roles out of necessity or societal pressure.

its a horribly complicated problem. extra sad that i can't make a 'sexist' joke here as a punchline for fear of reprisal...

Re: No Girls Allowed

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my eyes, they're trying to bring attention to a non-existant problem (that has been solved pretty darned well with casual games ages ago) to increase readership on a pretty flamey topic, together with their twitter buddies. I believe there are very fundamental differences between males and females and that the optimal game design would target very specifically those differences (or at least be very aware of them),…

Psst, you are not allowed to say that :-) I don't know - there certainly are women who play "hardcore games". The more I think about it, the less understand what the problem is? For whatever reason, women seem to play less hardcore games. OK - but what is their problem? Do they think women unfairly miss out on all the fun? Then why don't they just tell women "hey, there is this thing called games, it's fun, try it" i…

  Psst, you're not allowed to say that :-)
I get these ^ all the time these days, including HN. Whenever anyone says something like that, I know I'm on the right track. :)

As far as spinach/chocolate analogy goes, the result they're going after is even worse - it's a spinach-flavoured chocolate, or chocolate-flavoured spinach.

Spinachocolate!

Re: No Girls Allowed

#110

Is there any non-anecdotal evidence that marketing has anywhere near the power this article ascribes to it? I hear this a lot lately. Some people believe that media have an almost magical power of shaping culture and behaviours. Beauty? Cosmo propaganda. Boys liking different toys than girls? Marketing. Yet when you dig a little deeper, studies on priming usually get wee p-values and barely significant, temporary cha…

Although its a bit off topic, the "standard american hearty breakfast" simply didn't exist more than a century ago.

Highly processed breakfast cereals are also relatively recent.

Corn syrup soda apparently becoming primary/sole source of hydration rather than a special treat.

All humans must consume vast quantities of dairy products is fairly recent.

Could just say "diet in general".

How about "Natural is good for you". Or greenwashing sells.

Post reply on HN