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No Girls Allowed

polygon.com

61–70 of 240 posts

Re: No Girls Allowed

#61
post #3

I myself believe in market dynamics. If girls were interested in what boys had they'd pursue it. If girls hated barbies they would nag parents about getting a train or a car and market demand for barbies would dry up. The fact that toy dolls are a billion dollar industry should make one sceptical about the supposed 'girliness that society instills in girls'. I find that premise as silly as thinking boys were somehow…

Society was able to convince millions of LGBT people to suppress some pretty fundamental desired and wishes. It takes a lot of strength to overcome it, many people used to just kill themselves instead. And you think children are stronger than that when it comes to toys?

Re: No Girls Allowed

#62
post #3

I myself believe in market dynamics. If girls were interested in what boys had they'd pursue it. If girls hated barbies they would nag parents about getting a train or a car and market demand for barbies would dry up. The fact that toy dolls are a billion dollar industry should make one sceptical about the supposed 'girliness that society instills in girls'. I find that premise as silly as thinking boys were somehow…

Barbies are fun. But that's not the point. Marketing is about identity at least as much as it is about the product. You look at beer adverts, how many of them directly bear on the beer?

http://youtu.be/MX145Tu4MHY

That could be any beer, or a magic potion, you know nothing about it.

Or shower gel

http://youtu.be/DVm00UBdS0Y

Or cars

http://youtu.be/ox_uDBrkp-M

"You can have this car, and everything that goes with it."

"Now you can drive the story."

There's certainly an element of information there, at least when you start getting onto companies that have an advantage in a technical area. But often, you're being sold a role: Buy this and you'll get women, wealth, etc.

When I was a girl, and still to an extent now I'm older, I wanted the things I was told I was going to like, and which it was expected that I was going to. You look at something and you see someone like you, or with some aspect of life that you want to have. A lot of the pitch towards us isn't dolls, it's friendship, or fashion, or something like that - broadly speaking, group identity.

The problem is you don't see the comparisons. If there aren't people like you being forwarded as enjoying and having fun with something, you may never try it, and even if you do the chances are that few people like you will, so you lose a lot of the social enjoyment that goes along with a thing.

Of course you're right. If girls all really hated barbies, we probably wouldn't have played with them - though I've no doubt some of us would have out of a desire to fit in. But that's not really the point. The question is how closely that approaches optimal; the most enjoyment that we could have got from a range of options, only a narrow range of which are promoted to us and will allow us to still be accepted by our friends who have also had these identities sold to them.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#63
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to your theory --of children as free thinkers whose actions represent their own 'free will'-- doesn't account for why advertizement works. If it were true, nobody would spend money on advertizement because everybody's actions is fully controlled by rational thinkers. Nor does your theory account for insanity or stupidity (why do something stupid if you have full control of your actions?) In fact your theory…

Advertising can perform a signalling function without anybody involved being irrational.

Doesn't falsify my point.

If everybody was rational, then no advertising would perform signalling function if it wouldn't serve to maximize our utility.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children have no buying power. Parents and guardians actually perform the purchasing, and will only buy items that they consider acceptable. This is governed not just by their own personal values and media consumption, but importantly by the views of their family, friends and peers. Children themselves are not immune to peer pressure, especially as they get older. They also want to meet the expectations of their pare…

I suspect most parents hate pink, though - they just give in to the wishes of their daughters.

But very definitely not give into the wishes of their sons who want pink. Parents apply pressure too.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#65
I wonder if it's a simple market differentiation factor, like why there are 100 different kinds of breakfast cereal. Creating two immiscible classes of toys effectively doubles the variety, and the floor space devoted to toys in stores. It makes hand-me-downs less appealing if you've got one kid of each kind. That factor alone would create a noticeable sales bump for toy stores, even if the differences were totally arbitrary. But the differences have to be strong enough so that the toys of each sex invoke the yuck response in the other sex.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#66
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a daughter about the same age so it gives me a bit of insight. She doesn't get to watch TV. Her playgroup has no major bias towards pink for girls (actually even deliberate in their avoidance of such stereotyping). My wife secretly detests pink and girly stuff and is/was a tomboy at heart. We do not discourage or encourage any particular colour or style. There are no obvious factors in my daughter's life that…

Similar here. I think a major contributor are other social influences other than myself and wife - most notably friends at kindergarden/school, and teachers there, too. There's much subtle influence that isn't obvious at first, at least wasn't to me. For example, notice how many people (say, neighbours or more importantly, grandparents or other relatives) will often congratulate little girls to being really pretty as…

Compliment women (not only girls) "by default" on their looks actually drives me nuts. It's used even in situations where is totally irrelevant (e.g. radio show). It is really engraved n our culture.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#67
post #3

I myself believe in market dynamics. If girls were interested in what boys had they'd pursue it. If girls hated barbies they would nag parents about getting a train or a car and market demand for barbies would dry up. The fact that toy dolls are a billion dollar industry should make one sceptical about the supposed 'girliness that society instills in girls'. I find that premise as silly as thinking boys were somehow…

That argument kind of ignores marketing. If I spend several million (probably billions cumulatively at this point) telling people that product X should be associated with characteristic Y which is traditionally assigned more to one gender than another, then I'm likely to be modifying the market to an extent that you cannot truthfully say that market dynamics provide a reason for the disparity that will emerge.

And your argument just presouposes a certain causality. Do marketers market pink toys to girls because that's what they want girls to buy, or because that's what girls want to buy? It seems the latter is much easier, than the former, No?

It's so stupid, because the arguments are always structured as, "society forces behaviour on girls and boys", when it seems pretty obvious it's more of a feedback loop. Tendencies trend in a gender, that "informs" society, which then reinforces them, and so on.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#68
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect most parents hate pink, though - they just give in to the wishes of their daughters.

But very definitely not give into the wishes of their sons who want pink. Parents apply pressure too.

True :-) More people seem to be concerned about girls liking pink than about boys not liking pink, though.

Re: No Girls Allowed

#69
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diamonds. > Americans exchange diamond rings as part of the engagement process, because in 1938 De Beers decided that they would like us to. Prior to a stunningly successful marketing campaign 1938, Americans occasionally exchanged engagement rings, but wasn’t a pervasive occurrence. http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-b... I think it's naive to think that marketing doesn't in some way shape an…

The point OP made is the opposite. Everyone already thinks marketing shapes our idea of what is "normal". The question is "Does it really do this?"

And he posted some evidence that yes, it really does.

The diamonds marketing campaign shows that marketing really can completely change cultural norms

Re: No Girls Allowed

#70
post #44

Very difficult page to read due to ugly color combinations. White on pink, next white on green. It literally hurts my eyes.

It sounds like you have some eye issues or perhaps it's just aging. Try readability, it's great for older folks. You should avoid magazines though, they often have similar designs yet lack a real world "readability" :) http://www.readability.com/

A color combination that works for a printed page may not work well for a luminescent display due to the inherent superiority of printed material in terms of readability and eye comfort.

I don't have any eye issues and am not in the "older folks" demo. I still found the page annoying to read.

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