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Protests in Ukraine

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Re: Protests in Ukraine

#21

Post by twoodfin »

friendly_chap wrote: post #14
twoodfin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exciting times to live in, hopefully the people will be able to get rid of the corrupt ruling class. In democracies, the people typically do this by voting for someone else. Why isn't that an option in Hungary?

In "democracies" similar to the Hungarian one you can chose who robs you, there is no good option. They are all the same, maybe one party called A the other B but the same people are behind all parties, and they form a strong inner circle. They just give you an illusion of democracy, really.

And yet 64% of Hungary's voters still voted in the supposedly meaningless 2010 elections. Are they all suffering under this illusion? That seems like your first problem to fix.

Re: Protests in Ukraine

#22

Post by friendly_chap »

crusso wrote: post #17
friendly_chap wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are at the moment, in an ideal world they should not be.

In an ideal world, there would be no ruling class.

That is a fair point and this question is deep enough to be out of scope for HN comments. However, I think there may be a legitimate reason for an existence of a ruling class, or more like "leading class": if that class is accepting people based on their merits, like human decency or intellectual capability.

Re: Protests in Ukraine

#23

Post by jeena »

gkoz wrote: post #4

There are no riots. It's sad that this word is used to label what's happening here. No one is burning cars, smashing up stores etc.

Yeah I'm confused too, it kind of looks like a peacefull protest, at least right now while I'm watching.

Re: Protests in Ukraine

#25

Post by unsigner »

twoodfin wrote: post #9
friendly_chap wrote: post #3

We have these kind of riots in Hungary (pretty close to Ukraine) as well. They are not really revolutions, but they are a good indicator that the people are extremely fed up with current government policies, which may lead to a revolution. Exciting times to live in, hopefully the people will be able to get rid of the corrupt ruling class. EDIT: Just to give you bit of context on corruption... in the UK where I curren…

Exciting times to live in, hopefully the people will be able to get rid of the corrupt ruling class. In democracies, the people typically do this by voting for someone else. Why isn't that an option in Hungary?

What drinchev said, plus: a significant proportion of the electorate is controlled (probably 10-15%) and outright bought (another 10-15%). The elections are technically fair, but those who have been in power for most of the last 25 years come with a hard advantage of 20-25% over whatever the authentic outrage can channel into voting booths.

If you're young, Western-minded and willing to work, it's much, much easier to emigrate and leave the hoi paloi to rot under their perennial red overlords, than to stay and fight the system. So people emigrate, and the shit for the rest becomes deeper.

Re: Protests in Ukraine

#26

Post by kovalkos »

This is my rough understanding of what's going on:

Ukraine wants to increase cooperation with Europe, and possibly join EU. This would undermine it's relationship with Russia.

The previous Ukranian president, Viktor Yushchenko, usually sided with the West, and current president, Viktor Yanukovych, wants to preserve friendship with Russia.

Russia obviously doesn't want to lose allies, so it threatened to stop trading, and impose strict sanctions on Ukraine if they agreed to partnership with Europe.

Some Ukrainians dislike Yanukovych for siding with Russia instead of Europe, thus causing protests.

If you have more knowledge about this situation, feel free to correct me if I err.

Re: Protests in Ukraine

#27

Post by joosters »

twoodfin wrote: post #9
friendly_chap wrote: post #3

We have these kind of riots in Hungary (pretty close to Ukraine) as well. They are not really revolutions, but they are a good indicator that the people are extremely fed up with current government policies, which may lead to a revolution. Exciting times to live in, hopefully the people will be able to get rid of the corrupt ruling class. EDIT: Just to give you bit of context on corruption... in the UK where I curren…

Exciting times to live in, hopefully the people will be able to get rid of the corrupt ruling class. In democracies, the people typically do this by voting for someone else. Why isn't that an option in Hungary?

It's not much of an option (in the Ukraine) when the opposition leader is in jail:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

Re: Protests in Ukraine

#28

Post by friendly_chap »

twoodfin wrote: post #21
friendly_chap wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In "democracies" similar to the Hungarian one you can chose who robs you, there is no good option. They are all the same, maybe one party called A the other B but the same people are behind all parties, and they form a strong inner circle. They just give you an illusion of democracy, really.

And yet 64% of Hungary's voters still voted in the supposedly meaningless 2010 elections. Are they all suffering under this illusion? That seems like your first problem to fix.

(Not addressing the fact we have incredible amounts of cheating at elections)

People can get really dumb when 98% of their time is spent trying to survive on 200-300 USD a month.

Add these facts to that 200-300 USD:

- Food is generally more expensive than in the UK

- A litre of gasoline costs 2 USD

- Electricity and gas prices are more expensive then in the UK

- The VAT is 27%

etc...

Re: Protests in Ukraine

#29

Post by computer »

kovalkos wrote: post #26

This is my rough understanding of what's going on: Ukraine wants to increase cooperation with Europe, and possibly join EU. This would undermine it's relationship with Russia. The previous Ukranian president, Viktor Yushchenko, usually sided with the West, and current president, Viktor Yanukovych, wants to preserve friendship with Russia. Russia obviously doesn't want to lose allies, so it threatened to stop trading,…

When you say "Ukraine wants to increase cooperation with Europe", who do you mean by "Ukraine"?

The president? The people in the west (i.e. the ones protesting here)? The people in the east who only speak Russian?

Re: Protests in Ukraine

#30

Post by crusso »

friendly_chap wrote: post #22
crusso wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an ideal world, there would be no ruling class.

That is a fair point and this question is deep enough to be out of scope for HN comments. However, I think there may be a legitimate reason for an existence of a ruling class, or more like "leading class": if that class is accepting people based on their merits, like human decency or intellectual capability.

Leaders in various contexts are fine, but the whole notion of "class" needs to go away. Classes are just constructs of culture, politics, and law that are contrived to keep the people with power in place so they can take advantage of their special status.
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