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Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

garynorth.com

41–50 of 306 posts

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#41
post #31
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we actually know how many large mining groups we need to make up 51% of the processing power of the block chain Two. GHash.io and BTCguild make up 27% each, for a total of 54%. https://blockchain.info/pools GHash.io had actually been acting maliciously according to some users on Bitcointalk, but the operator claims that was a rogue actor inside that has been dealt with. Double spends against betting sites in par…

We need digital currencies that can only ever be mined efficiently with a CPU, and there need to be many more blocks with lower rewards so that people don't need to join pools if they don't want to. They need to be able to earn "something" (not zero) even with a low-end CPU or when the difficulty gets too great, and close to the point of reaching the maximum number of coins. I think there weren't even 10 percent Bitc…

A cryptocurrency based on CPUs is just fodder for Botnet herders, like Bitcoin was for quite a period. Amusingly, that was Litecoins original call to action, "GPUs are too centralised, we can only be CPU mined!", except that they implemented scrypt very badly.

> I'd rather have that, than a few groups of people or governments owning a ton of ASIC's, or perhaps a few very expensive quantum computers in the future, that they can use to manipulate the currencies.

Any government worth it's salt has server farms with more CPUs and a bigger budget than you can imagine. It's not really a defence at all. Back when it was profitable, the operators at CERN used to mine to keep the cost of their servers down to a minimum, filling the spare cycles between computations. I imagine their systems are nothing compared with that of someone like the NSA.

> I'm not sure how it can be done, but some of the ones that claim to be CPU-only are using multiple hashing algorithms and ciphers at one, presumably to ensure that the task is too complex for anything less "general purpose" than a CPU (at least until they start making chips with accelerators for each and every one of those hashing algorithms?!).

Won't stop them being GPU or FPGA accelerated. I doubt anybody will ever care enough to do a custom silicon chip for any of the "altcoins".

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#42
> In this sense, Bitcoins is not a Ponzi scheme. It is simply a supermoney scheme.

Admits that bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme in his own article.

> The money was siphoned off from the beginning. Somebody owned a good percentage of the original digits.

Implies that most bitcoins are owned by satoshi nakamoto, without substantiating this claim by any number to quantify the impact. The estimated stash of satoshi is about 1 million bitcoins: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/6/4295028/report-satoshi-naka... . Today 11 million bitcoins are in existence. There will be an eventual cap at 21 million bitcoins, so satoshis stash is somewhere between 9% to 4% of all bitcoins. By comparision the winkelvii own about 1% of all bitcoins. I'm not qualifying the risk this presents, but I think it's important for an accurate critique to provide quantification.

> Money develops out of market exchanges. Money is the product of the market process. It arises out of an unplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time. It spreads slowly, Money has continuity of value. This is not intrinsic value. It is historic value.

These statements are provided by the author to explain the nature of money. Note that they do not contradict bitcoin, except perhaps in the haphazard and sometimes too fast adoption. However, the statement about the duration of the establishment of a monetary system derives largely from theory that was wholly written before there where computers or the internet. Historical observation cannot be a good guide when circumstances changed radically.

> Now let us look at bitcoins. The market value of one bitcoin has gone from about $2 to $1,000 in a year. This is not money.

Volatility != Money, I find this a weak argument. Substantial volatility can manifest itself in established currency markets as well.

The remainder of the "critisism" of this author basically boils down to "It can't be, because I say so. Perhaps best exemplified by this statement:

> In other words, bitcoins cannot possibly fulfill their supposed purpose: to serve as an unregulated currency unit.

Author offers scant real critisism beyond the observation that bitcoin is very volatile. Nobody is debating this fact. Nobody is objecting to the assertion that bitcoins, due to their volatility, are a difficult medium to use for exchange.

Sadly, author is missing an opportunity to examine what other prospects and drawbacks bitcoins have beyond a simple discussion of the nature "it's so volatile, you're crazy".

I don't think it would be possible to kickstart something entirely new, which has a massive potential as a technology, and not go trough phases of substantial volatility (many disruptive tech startups valuation goes trough phases of massive volatility, for instance like the early history of Microsoft). Now it's possible that this dooms bitcoin. However, it could be argued that if bitcoin didn't reward early adopters, and if it didn't had massive potential, which would invite the eventual hypes and busts and massive volatility, then it would linger forver in an obscure niche appreciated in it's abstract beauty by crypto and math geeks alone.

I think it's laudable to try, even if you don't succeed. But if you don't try, you're guaranteed to not succeed.

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#43

"Companies will not sell goods and services based on Bitcoins. Bitcoins have to have stable purchasing power if they are to serve as money, and they will never, ever achieve stable purchasing power." More & more companies announce that they accept Bitcoins on a daily basis, thus it has purchasing power & it creates value to the end consumer.

He's right though that very few accept bitcoin. Almost all use payment gateways that accept bitcoin but pay currency to the merchant.

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now the largest pool is 29%. And you actually only need 33% to trigger the 51% problem if the controlling pool withholds blocks for a couple seconds after solving them to give themselves a headstart on the next block. So in theory the currency is only days or weeks away from collapsing. I do think bitcoin solves a legitimate problem. But I don't think bitcoin itself will become the winner. Litecoin is vastly be…

Curious, how does Litecoin solve the 51% problem? Is this related to its 2.5 minute confirmation time, vs. Bitcoin's 10 minutes?

Litecoin does not solve any problem, just the proof of work algorithm is changed. The block time has nothing to do with it really, it just makes people believe one confirmation is as strong as any other (Litecoin's are actually just 4 times weaker).

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#45

This article is unfortunately mostly right. Bitcoin's are 95% a ponzi scheme investment, and will at some point crash spectacularly. The question remains, however, whether from the ashes of that crash a useful product can remain, that can still succeed as a currency, or whether the psychological damage will prove to be too much to move past. If it can survive, it may even eventually return to the same high prices, bu…

Bitcoin is only a Ponzi to those that don't actually understand Ponzis. Which scammer is paying me for my bitcoins out of someone else's promised profits?

yeah, it seems like the author (and many of the commenters) are just using ponzi as a synonym for a "pump and dump" or a speculative gold rush

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#46
post #42

> In this sense, Bitcoins is not a Ponzi scheme. It is simply a supermoney scheme. Admits that bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme in his own article. > The money was siphoned off from the beginning. Somebody owned a good percentage of the original digits. Implies that most bitcoins are owned by satoshi nakamoto, without substantiating this claim by any number to quantify the impact. The estimated stash of satoshi is about…

If you buy Bitcoin at $1,000 and it stays above $1,000 ... and then at $100,000 per Bitcoin value if it only fluctuates $200 per day, that's not really volatile.

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#47

This article is unfortunately mostly right. Bitcoin's are 95% a ponzi scheme investment, and will at some point crash spectacularly. The question remains, however, whether from the ashes of that crash a useful product can remain, that can still succeed as a currency, or whether the psychological damage will prove to be too much to move past. If it can survive, it may even eventually return to the same high prices, bu…

Bitcoin is only a Ponzi to those that don't actually understand Ponzis. Which scammer is paying me for my bitcoins out of someone else's promised profits?

You are correct. I was using the article's language, which I agree is not right. It should be called a bubble, not a ponzi scheme.

They are similar in that the price rise is being sustained by many new speculators/investors, and at some point, that will inevitably collapse.

I am reminded of the story that Joseph Kennedy predicted the 1920's stock market crash after receiving stock tips from his shoe-shine boy. He realized that if his shoe shiner was also partaking in the rampant speculation, there were probably few fools left to join in.

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#48
post #36

Bitcoin is not an investment scheme. It's a payment system. Unfortunately people are looking at it as an investment scheme. Even if it was an investment scheme it hardly fits the definition of a ponzi scheme. In any new investment whether it's a startup or bitcoin the early investors make out better than later investors. That is not the definition of a ponzi scheme.

The problem is that the heavily restricted money supply and inherent deflationary pressure built into the currency make it a poor medium of exchange, since they provide an incentive to hoard Bitcoin rather than spend it.

Something that is scarce, restricted in future supply, and of high demand will tend to serve as a magnet for speculation.

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#49
post #32

Is this the same Gary North who predicted the collapse of society from the Y2K bug? > North predicted a Y2K catastrophe in print and online,[31] and predicted that a Y2K date-rollover failure of the global Information Technology (IT) infrastructure would precipitate severe disruption and the complete collapse of the international economy, leaving American Christians to restore society following the collapse. http://e…

An Austrian economist predicting the end of the world? I'm shocked!

Gary North is Austrian?

Re: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

#50
Some features of the quoted 'Austrian School's theory' seem remarkably close to Bitcoin: it "arises out of an unplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time. It spreads slowly, as new people discover it as a tool of production..." and "becomes widely used as money as a result of innumerable transactions within the economy".

It's arguable that the 'unplanned' part is not a necessary feature of a currency. In fact, no fiat currency in circulation today has survived without a significant amount of planning.

In contrast, the planning which went into Bitcoin seems to have made it closely fit the theory's description of money. Arguing that its planned nature negates its 'moneyhood' (to coin a phrase... sorry...) seems a little like arguing that an artificial organ won't work due to not having been grown within the host, or that a genetically engineered organism will fail due to not having gone through an evolutionary process.

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