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Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

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Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#31

Post by notahacker »

coliveira wrote: post #10

I am in favor of using Latin in some circumstances. People miss the fact that the great thing about a dead language is that it doesn't change. However, if you write about science in English, for example, you can guarantee that 50 years from now your text will feel dated -- just try to read papers from the beginning of the 20th century. On the other hand, we still can read the great works of antiquity (from 20 centuri…

Two-hundred year old English is perfectly readable, and it would be entirely impossible to write a paper in Latin on, for example, computer science without very creative reinterpretation.

Torturing English to turn it into a relatively regular language would make much more sense than trying to torture Latin into something remotely adequate for conveying modern concepts.

Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#32

Post by superpatosainz »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #14
superpatosainz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, most Catholic churches now is celebrated in their region's language, after Jean Paul II's Second Vatican Council.

Jean Paul II did the Second Vatican Council? Right. And Linux Torvalds invented the C programming language.

Made a huge miss, cannot edit in order to correct. Thank you anyway.

Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#33

Post by VLM »

Crito wrote: post #23
coliveira wrote: post #10

I am in favor of using Latin in some circumstances. People miss the fact that the great thing about a dead language is that it doesn't change. However, if you write about science in English, for example, you can guarantee that 50 years from now your text will feel dated -- just try to read papers from the beginning of the 20th century. On the other hand, we still can read the great works of antiquity (from 20 centuri…

> "However, if you write about science in English, for example, you can guarantee that 50 years from now your text will feel dated -- just try to read papers from the beginning of the 20th century. On the other hand, we still can read the great works of antiquity (from 20 centuries ago) in Latin." Starting as somebody exposed to only modern english, getting off the ground with 17th or 18th century english is going to…

I agree and provide some more popular examples:

Shakespeare from around 1600 is rewarding but pretty much needs a translator into English to be understood by moderns. On the other hand Gibbon writing around the American Revolution in 1776 is modern, and is a very easy read.

The biggest issue you'll find is a variation in what moderns would consider grade level. Modern journalism is not allowed to rise about 3rd grade level reading ability because of the "need" to maximize potential readers aka profit. Bad writing drives out good writing just like bad money drives out good, or some say bad code drives out good code. (or coders?)

Gibbon is at a higher grade level of reading ability than modern average, which is going to be intimidating. I'd say its around high school level. It IS harder than the average newspaper sports page. However its not harder than any modern high school level text. Compared to a college level physics textbook, Gibbon is a pretty easy read.

Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#34

Post by Nux »

It's quite a romantic idea and somehow I like it, but it will not happen and should not happen.

There is one language that is understood/used much more in Europe than any others and that language is English, it's also the one language that is understood in most if not all civilised corners of the planet. The cognitive and all other efforts implied to change this would be just too big.

European nations hold dear to their languages, some more than others, but slowly and surely this grasp will weaken: your films are in English, your internet is in English, your smartphone defaults to English, your code comments are in English and so on.

For those who love Latin, English is not such a bad language to use; its lexicon is ~30% based on Latin.

Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#35

Post by derleth »

jedwhite wrote: post #7

Languages are living things. They morph and change, evolve and grow, and die. Latin lives on in English, French, Italian, Spanish and other languages. So in a sense it is not dead. Reading Beowulf (Old English) would not be much less intelligible to a modern audience than reading the Aeneid in Latin. Time changes all languages... and fugit interea, fugit irreparabile tempus, singula dum capti circumvectamur amore. Ed…

> Latin lives on in English

Only through borrowings. English is a Germanic language.

Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#37

Post by derleth »

VLM wrote: post #33
Crito wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "However, if you write about science in English, for example, you can guarantee that 50 years from now your text will feel dated -- just try to read papers from the beginning of the 20th century. On the other hand, we still can read the great works of antiquity (from 20 centuries ago) in Latin." Starting as somebody exposed to only modern english, getting off the ground with 17th or 18th century english is going to…

I agree and provide some more popular examples: Shakespeare from around 1600 is rewarding but pretty much needs a translator into English to be understood by moderns. On the other hand Gibbon writing around the American Revolution in 1776 is modern, and is a very easy read. The biggest issue you'll find is a variation in what moderns would consider grade level. Modern journalism is not allowed to rise about 3rd grade…

> Shakespeare from around 1600 is rewarding but pretty much needs a translator into English to be understood by moderns.

Nobody in 1600s England spoke the way Shakespeare wrote. Shakespeare was writing poetry. His plays are famous for their use of iambic pentameter especially, which is beautiful to hear and read but not a natural part of English prose.

To pick another example more-or-less at random from the same era, the work of Thomas Hobbes is much less poetic and, therefore, substantially more readable. The major stylistic difference I can see is that they were absolutely addicted to what we'd now consider overlong, or even run-on, sentences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes

Leviathan: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3207

Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#38

Post by wolfgke »

digitalengineer wrote: post #20

The use of Latin would do great damage to the European dream of unity. There's already a great distance between those who (are suppose to) represent the European population and the European citizens themselves. If they started using their own language it'd be like the old days where one could only come close to god via the church because the bible was written in Latin, a language only the men of the church understood…

The bible wasn't originally written in Latin.

The Old Testament is mostly written in Classical Hebrew (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew#Classical_Hebrew), except for large sections of the books of Daniel and Esra - these are written in Aramaic (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic)

The New Testament is originally written in Koine Greek (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Greek#Biblical_Koine).

The Latin versions are just old translations.

Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#39

Post by wolfgke »

Nux wrote: post #34

It's quite a romantic idea and somehow I like it, but it will not happen and should not happen. There is one language that is understood/used much more in Europe than any others and that language is English, it's also the one language that is understood in most if not all civilised corners of the planet. The cognitive and all other efforts implied to change this would be just too big. European nations hold dear to th…

What is criticised (especially from French or German native speakers) is that most European languages are more exact in their wording and grammar than English. Thus translating from English into such a language (French or especially German) often involves interpreting what the author probably meant and express it more exactly. This especially makes automatic English -> German translations particular dreaded for computer-generated translations.

Re: Caveat Emptor: Lovers of Latin Try to Sell a Dead Tongue

#40

Post by VLM »

derleth wrote: post #37
VLM wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and provide some more popular examples: Shakespeare from around 1600 is rewarding but pretty much needs a translator into English to be understood by moderns. On the other hand Gibbon writing around the American Revolution in 1776 is modern, and is a very easy read. The biggest issue you'll find is a variation in what moderns would consider grade level. Modern journalism is not allowed to rise about 3rd grade…

> Shakespeare from around 1600 is rewarding but pretty much needs a translator into English to be understood by moderns. Nobody in 1600s England spoke the way Shakespeare wrote. Shakespeare was writing poetry. His plays are famous for their use of iambic pentameter especially, which is beautiful to hear and read but not a natural part of English prose. To pick another example more-or-less at random from the same era,…

You make an excellent point, another poetic example is Jabberwocky is not a typical example of all late 1800s English literature.
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