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Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

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Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#61

Post by CyruzDraxs »

Lazare wrote: post #37
mintplant wrote: post #31

From Joyent's blog post [1]: > But while Isaac is a Joyent employee, Ben is not—and if he had been, he wouldn't be as of this morning: to reject a pull request that eliminates a gendered pronoun on the principle that pronouns should in fact be gendered would constitute a fireable offense for me and for Joyent. For comparison, here is bnoordhuis's comment from the pull request thread [2] that the post is referencing:…

Wow, Joyent comes across very poorly. For the record, I support using gender-neutral pronouns; I actually support the original pull request. But it seems inarguable that: 1. It's a minor change 2. Node.js, like many projects, rejects minor changes 3. It was rejected for being a minor change 4. Joyent reacted amazingly unprofessionally In particular, I have concerns both with the way the initial decision was reversed…

The contributor also had not signed a CLA, and the commit message did not follow the guidelines.

Ben should have been more explicit in his initial post about his reason for denying the commit. Isaac shouldn't have merged the pull, which violated the guidelines. The community shouldn't have raised their pitchforks without first seeking an explanation.

Everyone involved could use a dose of professionalism.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#62

Post by quinnchr »

aroman wrote: post #51

I'm sorry, but the entire notion that using masculine pronouns somehow implies sexism is complete bullshit. That's how the English language works. "He" is used as both neuter and masculine. There is no "it" pronoun. Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop fighting about this. Unless someone actually did something sexist, this is a linguistic bikeshed to end all bikesheds. Childish community behavior aside, the…

Yeah for sure the english language couldn't possibly itself be influenced by sexism. That's just how it works. We should just accept it.

The pronoun itself isn't sexist it's the reason behind it's use. Beyond indicating (possible) differences in biological sex, what purpose does using a gendered pronoun serve? It doesn't add information, it merely reinforces gender norms.

http://www.english.wisc.edu/rfyoung/336/gender.pdf

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#63

Post by astrodust »

dbond wrote: post #11

Are there any pieces anywhere about comment gendering being an issue to female programmers? (My short googling failed me)

It's not an "issue" so much as a pervasive problem. Presuming default-male is bad form, and it has a subtle excluding effect.

Replacing "him" with "the user" might seem inconsequential, but it's a tiny step in the right direction. A few million more like that and we'll be getting somewhere.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#64

Post by jdunck »

itafroma wrote: post #5

Most of the new guidelines[1] are technical, but the one relevant the events of the last day or two is on line 78: +* When documenting APIs and/or source code, don't make assumptions or make + implications about race, gender, religion, political orientation or anything + else that isn't relevant to the project. [1]: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/39db22594df13e8423af3...

That commit was made in response to this incident. No commit process was previously documented.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#65

Post by ispivey »

aroman wrote: post #51

I'm sorry, but the entire notion that using masculine pronouns somehow implies sexism is complete bullshit. That's how the English language works. "He" is used as both neuter and masculine. There is no "it" pronoun. Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop fighting about this. Unless someone actually did something sexist, this is a linguistic bikeshed to end all bikesheds. Childish community behavior aside, the…

There's a bunch of research suggesting that using "he" as a neuter pronoun makes women feel excluded: - First experiment/study I found: http://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=12... - Links to more research on the subject: http://alyx.io/educational-resources/gender.html#generic-mas...

Douglas Hofstadter wrote a good piece of satire explaining why it's oppressive by s/man/white, etc: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

Contrary to what you say, "they" was used as the singular neuter pronoun for a long time, until a concentrated effort to force it out of use in the 1800s. Some examples from a previous thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6824352. Some history here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Given it's possibly (likely) ostracizing and there's nothing categorically wrong about using "they" as a singular neuter pronoun, I think you're on the wrong side of this.

People should certainly stop fighting; the answer is to just roll with "they".

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#66

Post by graue »

aroman wrote: post #51

I'm sorry, but the entire notion that using masculine pronouns somehow implies sexism is complete bullshit. That's how the English language works. "He" is used as both neuter and masculine. There is no "it" pronoun. Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop fighting about this. Unless someone actually did something sexist, this is a linguistic bikeshed to end all bikesheds. Childish community behavior aside, the…

It's true that historically "he" has often been used a generic pronoun, but singular "they" also has a long history. I'd start with this Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Some object to the usage because:

> Proponents of gender-neutral language argue that the use of gender-specific language often implies male superiority or reflects an unequal state of society. According to The Handbook of English Linguistics, generic masculine pronouns and gender-specific job titles are instances "where English linguistic convention has historically treated men as prototypical of the human species." Words that refer to women often devolve in meaning, frequently taking on sexual overtones.

> These differences in usage are criticized on two grounds: one, that they reflect a biased state of society, and two, that they help to uphold that state. Studies of children, for instance, indicate that the words children hear affect their perceptions of the gender-appropriateness of certain careers. Other research has demonstrated that men and women apply for jobs in more equal proportions when gender-neutral language is used in the advertisement, as opposed to the generic he or man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language_in_Eng...

Many years ago, I would have agreed with you that using "he" as neuter was correct and therefore preferable to singular "they". I no longer feel that way. I'd attribute that change in opinion to two causes:

One, I'm less concerned with by-the-book "correctness" and pedantry, and more concerned with the real-world effect my words have on people.

Two, I now realize that English is a living, evolving language, and there is no one authority on what is or is not correct usage. What is widely held to be proper English at a given time is a product of who happened to have influence in society at that time, no more, no less.

Also, although this is not what changed my opinion, I find it interesting to note that many of the same people who call the matter trivial will also expend considerable time and effort defending generic "he". If you find it so trivial, why not humor the people who think gender-neutral language is important?

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#67

Post by Brakenshire »

aroman wrote: post #51

I'm sorry, but the entire notion that using masculine pronouns somehow implies sexism is complete bullshit. That's how the English language works. "He" is used as both neuter and masculine. There is no "it" pronoun. Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop fighting about this. Unless someone actually did something sexist, this is a linguistic bikeshed to end all bikesheds. Childish community behavior aside, the…

It is highly debatable whether 'he' remains a gender-neutral pronoun. I would say that is certainly not the case in the UK.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#68

Post by aroman »

quinnchr wrote: post #62
aroman wrote: post #51

I'm sorry, but the entire notion that using masculine pronouns somehow implies sexism is complete bullshit. That's how the English language works. "He" is used as both neuter and masculine. There is no "it" pronoun. Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop fighting about this. Unless someone actually did something sexist, this is a linguistic bikeshed to end all bikesheds. Childish community behavior aside, the…

Yeah for sure the english language couldn't possibly itself be influenced by sexism. That's just how it works. We should just accept it. The pronoun itself isn't sexist it's the reason behind it's use. Beyond indicating (possible) differences in biological sex, what purpose does using a gendered pronoun serve? It doesn't add information, it merely reinforces gender norms. http://www.english.wisc.edu/rfyoung/336/gende…

Thanks for your reply.

> Yeah for sure the english language couldn't possibly itself be influenced by sexism. That's just how it works. We should just accept it.

That was not my point, nor do I believe I implied that. I acknowledge that the original reason why English's nonspecific/neuter pronoun is the same as the masculine is almost certainly because of ages-old sexism and masculo-normativity.

> The pronoun itself isn't sexist it's the reason behind it's use.

I completely agree. Do you think sexism was intended in the original code comment? If not, then by your logic there was nothing sexist about using "he" and "him".

> Beyond indicating (possible) differences in biological sex, what purpose does using a gendered pronoun serve? It doesn't add information, it merely reinforces gender norms.

I agree, from a 21st century perspective it seems absurd to not have a neutral/neuter/nonspecific pronoun. But it is an established point of English grammar and language that the masculine pronoun is because there does not exist a neutral/neuter/nonspecific one. Using "they" and "them" and those forms is a relatively recent development of modern language. Personally, I tend to use them very often because I don't want to offend anyone, and I think their usage as an "official unofficial" neutral/neuter/nonspecific pronoun is well on its way to becoming the de-facto way of referring to non-gender-specific people.

My point was, and still is, that it is neither wrong nor sexist to use "he" or "his". Unless of course, the sentence you are writing is incorrect or sexist.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#69

Post by jmspring »

It is interesting following this particular discussion about gender pronouns in Node.js. I am curious how other, more mature, products have handled similar. GitHub and easily viewed pull requests make some of this much more visible than say in the old days of sites like sourceforge.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#70

Post by aroman »

graue wrote: post #66
aroman wrote: post #51

I'm sorry, but the entire notion that using masculine pronouns somehow implies sexism is complete bullshit. That's how the English language works. "He" is used as both neuter and masculine. There is no "it" pronoun. Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop fighting about this. Unless someone actually did something sexist, this is a linguistic bikeshed to end all bikesheds. Childish community behavior aside, the…

It's true that historically "he" has often been used a generic pronoun, but singular "they" also has a long history. I'd start with this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they Some object to the usage because: > Proponents of gender-neutral language argue that the use of gender-specific language often implies male superiority or reflects an unequal state of society. According to The Handbook o…

Thanks for your comment and for the information. I definitely agree with your point that the singular "they" is, at this point in time, as correct or more correct than the neuter "he".

I also totally agree with your point about humoring people who actually care passionately about this — that's precisely my issue with this whole debacle. I wasn't taking the position that "he" is the only correct option, and other phrasings must be attacked. Rather, that the entire matter is a bikeshed, and that people should not assume that just because someone used "he" as neuter that he (see what I did there?) is sexist.

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