Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community • Hacker News Board

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#21

Post by selmnoo » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:12 AM UTC

adriancooney wrote: post #8

> If Ben can’t learn, we’ll fire him. That statement feels a little to intimate for an outsider to the company. Ben made a mistake but to single out and threaten him like that in public would surely alienate him further. This entire situation has gotten extremely out of hand. It shows how activists can turn into extremists when faced with an adversary. I'm in no way advocating what Ben did but it's despicable how eve…

Thank you for pointing that out. What the fuck is it with these high-levels treating people like some easily replacable, unhuman commodity? Don't ever speculate firing people like that in public, just fucking don't.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#22

Post by dmpk2k » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:12 AM UTC

kika wrote: post #15

dmpk2k wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I'm surprised though. bnoordhuis lacks tact; poke other people enough and eventually you'll get an angry mob. The parent article talks about learning, but glosses over that bnoordhuis' behaviour that set this all off isn't unusual for him. Learning? No. Class? No. That said, this is a tempest in a teacup. bnoordhuis upsets someone again, news at 11.

Linus for example isn't the nicest guy in town either. I know a few devs who are parsecs ahead of me, in knowledge and/or productivity. None of them could qualify as a nice and polite person. May be observation bias, but I see a connection here.

I think that's an example of sample bias. There are many excellent developers who are nice too, you just don't hear as much about them because they're not causing drama. Again.

All the great developers I've worked with have been fantastic people too. Maybe I've just been lucky.

As a counterpoint in the node community: isaacs is pleasant, amazingly patient, and an excellent developer.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#23

Post by itafroma » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:14 AM UTC

dmourati wrote: post #20

itafroma wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original issue was a pull request[1] made to the libuv code base to change "him" to "them". It was rejected[2] by one of the committers, Ben Noordhuis, as being too trivial. That decision was reversed by Isaac Schlueter (another committer) and committed[3]. Noordhuis reverted that commit[4], chiding Schlueter for not following procedure, but that revert was quickly reverted itself. Bryan Cantrill of Joyent, one o…

Not exactly. There are two Isaacs. Isaac Roth at StrongLoop, author of the OP, he didn't come into the story until today. Isaac Schlueter works for Joyent, and originally committed the requested change.

Yeah, sorry about that; I just caught that mistake myself. Fixed.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#24

Post by ijroth » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:14 AM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #7

Did you send this as a private teaching moment first?

I actually did.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#25

Post by jamesaguilar » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:16 AM UTC

ijroth wrote: post #24

jamesaguilar wrote: post #7

Did you send this as a private teaching moment first?

I actually did.

That is good of you. No more questions. Generally I agree with your assessment, however when confronting systemic biases sometimes it's necessary to speak out publicly. However, that can be done outside the context of a particular person-to-person encounter.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#26

Post by aviraldg » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:17 AM UTC

itafroma wrote: post #13

rpedela wrote: post #6

I think the article is missing a lot of context. What was the offending issue?

The original issue was a pull request[1] made to the libuv code base to change "him" to "them". It was rejected[2] by one of the committers, Ben Noordhuis, as being too trivial. That decision was reversed by Isaac Schlueter (another committer) and committed[3]. Noordhuis reverted that commit[4], chiding Schlueter for not following procedure, but that revert was quickly reverted itself. Bryan Cantrill of Joyent, one o…

Much ado over nothing. "Them" in that context just sounds odd to me (perhaps not in American English?) A 50/50 mix of him/her sounds way more natural.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#27

Post by rdtsc » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:19 AM UTC

My understanding of Node.JS and libuv community is as an outsider. I don't follow what's going on unless it is on the front page of HN once in a while and other forums.

But one impression I get from Node.JS and its surrounding community is arrogance and immaturity. This is from top to down -- companies sponsoring it (Joyent) and many of its vocal proponents. I see plenty of energy, enthusiasm, but mixed with immaturity. "We don't know what are doing, but darn it! we will be very vocal and do it with lots of enthusiasm".

One guy doesn't want to commit a trivial change. It blows up into a media shitstorm. Reverted commits. Joyent's reaction is what surprised me -- "While we would fire Ben over this". This guy doesn't even work for them. Hypothetically firing people, hmm, so committed to Women's Rights, they are hypothetically hiring and firing this person. Have they talked to him in private? StrongLoop, a company I never heard of until this point, is a bit more mature, that's good to see, but even they couldn't resist the veiled threat.

What is sad, as a whole this episode just reinforced the (hopefully wrong) stereotype I have of the community. Joyent instead of helping the community (which I think they thought they did by writing that blog post), are hurting it.

Buying into and spending time and money learning a platform/language is also an implicit buy in/participation in the community. So far it screams to me "stay away". Hopefully it will grow up at some point.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#28

Post by dmpk2k » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:20 AM UTC

selmnoo wrote: post #16

dmpk2k wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I'm surprised though. bnoordhuis lacks tact; poke other people enough and eventually you'll get an angry mob. The parent article talks about learning, but glosses over that bnoordhuis' behaviour that set this all off isn't unusual for him. Learning? No. Class? No. That said, this is a tempest in a teacup. bnoordhuis upsets someone again, news at 11.

Uhm, Ben lacks tact? Says who? I think you guys are maybe confusing the tough Dutch culture as being insensitive to some hot issues. Ben is an extremely smart, extremely prolific programmer. When you're out and about like him you're bound to get yourself tripped somewhere along the way. As an aside, while Joyent has exposed itself as being extremely unprofessional and prone to jumping on the gun, I'm saddened that St…

Uhm, Ben lacts tact? Says who?

It's a general observation I've developed watching node development on occasion. I don't even follow it that closely, but a disproportionate amount of negativity seems to stem from bnoordhuis; that's why I remember him specifically.

Okay, it could be just me, but I've heard other people subsequently complain about his behaviour too.

I think you guys are maybe confusing the tough Dutch culture as being insensitive to some hot issues.

The Netherlands isn't the world, and only a tiny percentage of developers come from there. As the blog post says, bnoordhuis needs to learn, but so far he has not. Furthermore, regardless of the origins of his behaviour, it's still negative.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#29

Post by hablahaha » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:21 AM UTC

adriancooney wrote: post #8

> If Ben can’t learn, we’ll fire him. That statement feels a little to intimate for an outsider to the company. Ben made a mistake but to single out and threaten him like that in public would surely alienate him further. This entire situation has gotten extremely out of hand. It shows how activists can turn into extremists when faced with an adversary. I'm in no way advocating what Ben did but it's despicable how eve…

I was really taken aback when I read that as well. I don't have the thickest skin and I would have probably just retreated into the forest if someone ever wrote that about me.

Re: Collaboration not Derision in the Node Community

#30

Post by ijroth » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:27 AM UTC

adriancooney wrote: post #8

> If Ben can’t learn, we’ll fire him. That statement feels a little to intimate for an outsider to the company. Ben made a mistake but to single out and threaten him like that in public would surely alienate him further. This entire situation has gotten extremely out of hand. It shows how activists can turn into extremists when faced with an adversary. I'm in no way advocating what Ben did but it's despicable how eve…

I wrote that. I didn't mean it literally. It’s a response to Bryan saying that failure to be sensitive to gender issues would be a firing offense at his company. We take it really seriously, and I’d like to point out that two of our senior leaders are women and we are proud to employ talented women engineers. If this remained an issue, I’d need to find a way to rectify it with Ben, and that could get as serious as firing. But he understands now. In the rest of my post I make the point that jumping to firing him publicly was not giving him a sufficient chance nor crediting him for his efforts elsewhere.