The fight against sexism is not a free pass • Hacker News Board

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#111

Post by reeses » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 2:13 AM UTC

stephp wrote: post #66

yeukhon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just afraid there is going to be a retaliation against Ben. Remember what happened early this year at PyCon? Honestly, people need to stop acting like animals and stop bash him out. There are other contributors who can rule him out and we don't need those hash comments. Sexism is not about woman. When we call a country "she" we are making a female description of what a country is: nurturing her citizens. And sin…

Saying "your average uncle joe" does not ring sexist to me? You're drawing a comparison, to whomever you want to, and not making any radical assumption about a specified group of people. As for your rape anecdote... I hope you'll give the mechanics of that a bit more thought? And also consider the type of physical injury. (Many rape victims suffer damage to their internal organs and/or lose the ability to conceive.)

Male prison rape is a joking matter in many places. "Pound me in the ass prison" is well-known in the hacker community.

Think before you react.

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#112

Post by thescribe » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 2:14 AM UTC

ben0x539 wrote: post #87

im3w1l wrote: post #56

Is there a scientific basis for wanting to remove gendered pronouns?

Is there a scientific basis for insisting on gendered pronouns if there's no shortage of people telling you that they're offputting and exclusionary?

If we did whatever 'people told us' we wouldn't do anything, this alone isn't a reason for action.

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#113

Post by thescribe » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 2:18 AM UTC

trekky1700 wrote: post #16

Things that are obvious: 1. Gender neutral language is obviously and undoubtedly preferable. 2. The changes would have been incredibly easy to implement, the work was already done. I can't think of a good reason not to accept the pull request. It all seems like such a simple problem getting blown way out of proportion.

Regarding point 1, is it really obvious that Gender neutral language is preferable?

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#114

Post by thescribe » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 2:21 AM UTC

ben0x539 wrote: post #94

yeukhon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just afraid there is going to be a retaliation against Ben. Remember what happened early this year at PyCon? Honestly, people need to stop acting like animals and stop bash him out. There are other contributors who can rule him out and we don't need those hash comments. Sexism is not about woman. When we call a country "she" we are making a female description of what a country is: nurturing her citizens. And sin…

> I just thought this is a legitimate question to ask: any difference between an anti-sexist and a feminist? Do feminists prefer gender neutral or do they prefer to have "she" instead? Feminism is about equal rights, don't worry.

Citation needed.

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#115

Post by trekky1700 » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 2:22 AM UTC

overgard wrote: post #22

trekky1700 wrote: post #16

Things that are obvious: 1. Gender neutral language is obviously and undoubtedly preferable. 2. The changes would have been incredibly easy to implement, the work was already done. I can't think of a good reason not to accept the pull request. It all seems like such a simple problem getting blown way out of proportion.

There's a more subtle issue at play: accepting the pull request could be seen as "admitting" that the original phrasing was offensive. Perhaps they didn't want to do so because they disagreed with the premise. Accepting the patch isn't a neutral action, it also means implicitly accepting a certain world view. The patch itself comes across almost as bullying: accept our view, or be publicly shamed as a misogynist.

I wouldn't even call it offensive. I don't get where that's even coming from. It's not offensive, it's just simply incorrect phrasing. It's poor English if you will.

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#116

Post by trekky1700 » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 2:25 AM UTC

thescribe wrote: post #113

trekky1700 wrote: post #16

Things that are obvious: 1. Gender neutral language is obviously and undoubtedly preferable. 2. The changes would have been incredibly easy to implement, the work was already done. I can't think of a good reason not to accept the pull request. It all seems like such a simple problem getting blown way out of proportion.

Regarding point 1, is it really obvious that Gender neutral language is preferable?

Obvious in that it is obviously poor English, if you want to ignore the gender issue altogether. "He" has a specific definition as a pronoun, versus using "one".

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#117

Post by thescribe » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 2:45 AM UTC

trekky1700 wrote: post #116

thescribe wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding point 1, is it really obvious that Gender neutral language is preferable?

Obvious in that it is obviously poor English, if you want to ignore the gender issue altogether. "He" has a specific definition as a pronoun, versus using "one".

Good point, I hadn't considered that.

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#118

Post by ceautery » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 2:59 AM UTC

thescribe wrote: post #114

ben0x539 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just thought this is a legitimate question to ask: any difference between an anti-sexist and a feminist? Do feminists prefer gender neutral or do they prefer to have "she" instead? Feminism is about equal rights, don't worry.

Citation needed.

Just about anything by bell hooks. But if you want a specific starting point, try "Feminism is for Everybody".

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#119

Post by Crito » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 4:42 AM UTC

yeukhon wrote: post #109

nslater wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When we call a country "she" we are making a female description of what a country is: nurturing her citizens. This is an example of gender stereotyping.

But to how many people we need to use a gender neutral pronoun in this context?

I don't think your explanation for why we refer to countries as though they are females is necessarily complete or correct. In English, countries and ships are both "she". German famously has countries as male ("Fatherland"), but that is by no means the only example. In Russian, and I believe Portuguese, ships are male ("He's a good ship.")

Re: The fight against sexism is not a free pass

#120

Post by yeukhon » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 5:52 AM UTC

Crito wrote: post #119

yeukhon wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to how many people we need to use a gender neutral pronoun in this context?

I don't think your explanation for why we refer to countries as though they are females is necessarily complete or correct. In English, countries and ships are both "she". German famously has countries as male ("Fatherland"), but that is by no means the only example. In Russian, and I believe Portuguese, ships are male ( "He's a good ship." )

Interesting to know. Thanks.

Though does this have anything to do with culture? I honestly don't know. I use that as an example to ask myself whether sexism is conditional or not. You can use "it" or "she" to refer to a country (or a land if you enjoy poem hahaha), but I supposed most people will not find that sexist. So sexism is condition and has to do with the story (the context in which the pronoun is used).