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Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

proofofexistence.com

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Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#31

Post by JoeAltmaier »

alexwright wrote: post #27
jawr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the fact that bitcoins can be permanently destroyed is a little bit worrying, one of BTC's benefits is it's cap. What's the economical consequences of these coins being destroyed?

You can burn fiat cash, and fire gold bars into space. What are the consequences of those actions? Other coins are presumably worth more because there are now fewer of them.

I would think in a 'tulip bulb' bubble supply is not entirely the important variable. Growing demand would be the driving force behind valuation. Losing a few coins would matter not at all. Maybe even a lot of coins.

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#32

Post by eterm »

runn1ng wrote: post #23
rdtsc wrote: post #4

This makes me think of another thing I was wondering about -- can some entity that doesn't like having Bitcoin around for whatever reason, DDoS it by filling it with meaningless transactions. Maybe just setting up 100 addresses and constantly transferring small payments between them, filling the transaction history with garbage. Is that possible, and is there any protection against that?

Some people say that is exactly what SatoshiDICE is doing :)

Can't satoshi dice minimise the impact by running deposit accounts?

You deposit e.g. 10BTC then gamble it as you wish, and then each individual bet isn't on the block chain.

Then when you're done you can withdraw BTC back out as you wish?

This is how normal online casinos work because they don't want to handle lots of tiny transactions either.

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#33

Post by venomsnake »

jawr wrote: post #9
Patient0 wrote: post #5

"This is why the bitcoins sent in this special transaction are unspendable, as the addresses are being generated from the document's hash fragments instead of from a private ECDSA key." I hadn't realised before that this means that you can provably "destroy" bitcoins. That is, you can "prove" that a certain bitcoin amount will never be spent again by anyone including yourself...

Yeah, the fact that bitcoins can be permanently destroyed is a little bit worrying, one of BTC's benefits is it's cap. What's the economical consequences of these coins being destroyed?

Nothing. Since BTC is deflationary by design you just increase it a little bit. Since modern economics really dislikes deflation at any rate it does not matter how much deflationary it is.

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#34

Post by alexwright »

drakaal wrote: post #8

Adding lots of data to the transaction logs is one easy DDoS. Do so many transactions that the logs get to be larger than fit on most systems. With multiple Gigs of data already required, if someone was evil they could up the volume and keep people out of the game by making sure that that there were over a terabyte of transaction logs. Most machines won't have that kind of storage and would "fall off" the network. Pa…

Bitcoin doesn't work by passing tokens around to represent the value. In a Bitcoin spend the value is simply added to the wallet/address's balance. Any further spend is deducted from the wallets balance.

The "coin" is not a single token that lives on and is broken apart to be spent, so there's no way a coin could self destruct after being transferred.

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#35

Post by mathretardthrow »

There is absolutely no proof that one-way functions exist: therefore this is not a 'proof' of existence of files at a certain date.* It is just a strong indication of it.

* that is, at some future date (or secretly, today) an algorithm could be discovered breaking the one-way function used to generate these hashes. Then a collision could be found, perhaps with chosen-prefix. Meaning an arbitrary file could be suffixed so that it looks as though that is what was hashed today. In the past, many hash algorithms thought to be strong were weakened in this way.

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#36

Post by drakaal »

alexwright wrote: post #34
drakaal wrote: post #8

Adding lots of data to the transaction logs is one easy DDoS. Do so many transactions that the logs get to be larger than fit on most systems. With multiple Gigs of data already required, if someone was evil they could up the volume and keep people out of the game by making sure that that there were over a terabyte of transaction logs. Most machines won't have that kind of storage and would "fall off" the network. Pa…

Bitcoin doesn't work by passing tokens around to represent the value. In a Bitcoin spend the value is simply added to the wallet/address's balance. Any further spend is deducted from the wallets balance. The "coin" is not a single token that lives on and is broken apart to be spent, so there's no way a coin could self destruct after being transferred.

You keep telling yourself that.

I understand fractional coins. I was over simplifying for brevity. I'll give you a hint. You have to move the coins between two wallets you own before you create a coin that will "break" when it goes in to the third's wallet. The Third wallet accepts a coin that no one will take afterwards. The coin becomes undependable.

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#37

Post by infruset »

rdtsc wrote: post #10
mortehu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transaction prioritization[1] and transaction fees already rate limit stuff like that, and patches to the clients used by major mining pools may be able to fix it permanently. 1. priority = sum(input_value_in_base_units * input_age)/size_in_bytes

What determines the size_in_bytes value? In general, let's say a govt agency get assigned an $18.5m budget to break the Bitcoin currency as much possible, what could their plan of attack be, i.e. spend that money in the most efficient way possible? Create a large ring of wallets and send tiny payment around the ring? Create less wallets but send large payments between them?

Why $18.5m?

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#38

Post by zorked »

eterm wrote: post #32
runn1ng wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people say that is exactly what SatoshiDICE is doing :)

Can't satoshi dice minimise the impact by running deposit accounts? You deposit e.g. 10BTC then gamble it as you wish, and then each individual bet isn't on the block chain. Then when you're done you can withdraw BTC back out as you wish? This is how normal online casinos work because they don't want to handle lots of tiny transactions either.

I think they either moved to off-chain transactions or will move shortly. I haven't heard much of Satosh Dice though, wonder if it's still as "important" as it once was.

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#39

Post by jawr »

alexwright wrote: post #27
jawr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the fact that bitcoins can be permanently destroyed is a little bit worrying, one of BTC's benefits is it's cap. What's the economical consequences of these coins being destroyed?

You can burn fiat cash, and fire gold bars into space. What are the consequences of those actions? Other coins are presumably worth more because there are now fewer of them.

Sure, you can just print more cash. With gold bars the gold would become (I assume) more valuable. But at what point does it seesaw and there isn't enough of it to be of any value? I guess with BTC there are satoshi's.

Re: Proof of Existence: Storing Hashed Files in the Bitcoin Block Chain

#40

Post by runn1ng »

zorked wrote: post #38
eterm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't satoshi dice minimise the impact by running deposit accounts? You deposit e.g. 10BTC then gamble it as you wish, and then each individual bet isn't on the block chain. Then when you're done you can withdraw BTC back out as you wish? This is how normal online casinos work because they don't want to handle lots of tiny transactions either.

I think they either moved to off-chain transactions or will move shortly. I haven't heard much of Satosh Dice though, wonder if it's still as "important" as it once was.

Welll.... this doesn't look well.

https://satoshidice.com/

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