CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store • Hacker News Board

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#161

Post by omegote » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:44 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #156

omegote wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a sad thing to be if I did it with no reason. But I've been a huge open source supporter all my life, and I've always found Apple strategies to be undesirable, to say the least. Their products have always been overpriced and hard to use if you're not into their ecosystem (say, transfering a mp3 file from Linux to an iPod nano).

> Their products have always been overpriced I found quite the opposite. Nothing quite beats their prices. Here's an easy example: when the iPad came out at $499, the first competing touch tablets come out at $749 (and of course were crap compared to it too). It took competitors years to reach and go below iPad level prices. You also have to know what you're getting and compare like for like. You cannot compare a mac…

Your last paragraph really takes away all the impartiality your comment seemed to have.

Anyway, it would have been great to know which models you were exactly comparing, because I don't believe what you say about the PC being that bad.

Also, there are some features in the MBP that don't make sense in a PC. For instance, retina display. GOOD LUCK with that resolution in a 15" display using anything other than OSX. Or the battery life. Of course a MacBook is going to have a longer battery life. They have iron-fisted control over everything, from the software to the hardware. It would be hilarious if with such dictatorial control they didn't have good battery life.

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#162

Post by tonylemesmer » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 4:39 PM UTC

codelust wrote: post #132

iamshs wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is only one person whose phone is rendered unusable and not many as you insinuate. Same thing happened with PS4 launch when people reported issues, but statistic turned out to be http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/11/android-roms-the-easy...

I think an accurate comparison would be EA providing software via the Playstation Store which attempts to change the OS, leading to a situation where the warranty becomes void and Sony refuses to replace or fix broken PS4s free of cost. When problems creep up on a product like this, the user will get shafted badly in the end. Google will refuse to help (cue complaints about Google allowing potentially destructive app…

Same here. Been running Android since 2010 on 3rd party ROMs. Thought I'd bricked on more than one occasion but somehow got away with it. Guides purporting to provide the "definitive" or "foolproof" rooting / flashing method rarely do, leaving out crucial steps and not considering the full combination of starting points that might / will occur and the effect of tinkering.

I concur with justin66. The necessary skills to deal with something going awry would seem to be good criteria for searching out Cyanogenmod for themselves and making the jump rather than casually clicking on "install" in the play store.

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#163

Post by unfasten » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

drcube wrote: post #160

victorhooi wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you can just sideload the ADB from outside the Android Market. That's a pretty basic task for any Android user. In fact, if you can't do that, then you probably have no business whatsoever installing a customer ROM. Think of it as a basic intelligence test - you want to change your car's air filter - first step is to pop open the bonnet. If you can't do that, then you probably want to seriously consider, gee, sho…

Can you sideload anything on Windows or Apple phones? No. And on most carrier locked Android phones, you have to find an exploit to root your device before they let you sideload apps. So my point, that you are less free today with modern smartphones than you were with your PC under MS dominance in the 90s, stands. This isn't like some test to pass before changing your oil. It's like requiring Ford's permission to ins…

> And on most carrier locked Android phones, you have to find an exploit to root your device before they let you sideload apps.

This is wrong.

Allowing this is built in to Android and it's a user togglable setting.

Verizon explicitly mentions sideloading and how to enable it:

http://mobile.vzw.com/LocationAgent

    For Android devices, please confirm the device's Location Services
    setting GPS and Verizon Location Services (if present) are set to
    on and the device's Settings > Security > Unknown sources is checked.

http://cache.vzw.com/multimedia/mim/mot_droid_razr_hd/razrHD... PDF Page 15:

    To let your smartphone install apps that are not from 
    Google Play, tap Apps  >Settings >Security & Screen Lock
     and check Unknown sources

Ditto AT&T:

https://www.wireless.att.com/businesscenter/en_US/pdf/att-to... PDF Page 3:

    In order to install these apps, you must ensure the 'Unknown Sources'
    box is checked [...] Follow the instructions on your phone to enable
    this feature and continue with AT&T Toggle installation.

http://www.att.com/esupport/article.jsp?sid=KB410684&cv=820

    Before you begin, you'll need to set your Android smartphone
    to allow downloads from non-Market sources by selecting Unknown sources
    in the Settings menu on your device.

Ditto Sprint:

http://eguides.sprint.com/support/eguides/htcone/content/htc...

    Go to Settings > Security, and then select the Unknown sources
    option to allow the download and installation of the tool
    through your Web browser.

http://eguides.sprint.com/support/eguides/sprintvital/conten...

    If you want to install apps from sources other than the Google
    Play Store app, you must allow the installation of apps from
    unknown sources first.

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#164

Post by babesh » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 5:05 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #56

gcb1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let me see... google and the open handset aliance advertise an open source OS, that you cant install without voiding warranties and bending to proprietary radio and firmware code. just like pc manufacturers of the 80/90s (bios was reverse engineered from IBM and then tightly controled by ami. it only looked slighly open because IBM was much more closed. same with android standing next to apple.

> that you cant install without voiding warranties So you think that a user should be able install an OS that bricks their phone and still have the phone still covered by warranty? How does that make sense? Is this people's expectation of Google, that if they don't give you whatever you want (at their own expense) then they are like 90s Microsoft?

Isn't it because the apps aren't completely customizable/removable without rooting? So if a carrier includes apps that you don't like and that you want uninstalled but can't. The same probably goes for google play services. What if you don't want that to auto update?

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#165

Post by Karunamon » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 5:20 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #47

VikingCoder wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always about the end user? Like when Apple said that all Apps needed to be originally written in their crappy language, and that you could not cross-compile to it? That had literally nothing to do with the end user, and everything to do with trying to enforce a monopoly.

> That had literally nothing to do with the end user, and everything to do with trying to enforce a monopoly. That word, monopoly. I don't think it means what you think it means. What they were trying to enforce was a common programming language for all apps that they could improve in tandem with the OS, so they wouldn't be held hostage in the future to be backwards compatible to some popular runtime (like Flash once…

I don't know about you, but I can't stand it it when my method calls are less wide than my screen. ObjC solves that.

I also like how there are mutually incompatible object types (the C types vs the ObjC types) that you have to MakeLongAndRidiculousCallsToConvertAcross.

Going through the basic stuff on the "learn this language" sites was painful.

ObjC is the most programmer-hostile language I've ever seen that wasn't designed with that in mind.

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#166

Post by throwawaykf02 » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 6:03 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #40

g8oz wrote: post #15

It seems like no matter how blatantly Google carries out it's updated "Microsoft from the 1990's" act there will be a coterie of apologists on HN explaining away it's actions. The Cold War provided an appropriate label for this crowd: "useful idiots".

Let's recap. Prior to today, a community-developed fork of Google's open-source operating system could be installed by using an app from Google's own app store (which sometimes bricked the phone). After today, a community-developed fork of Google's open-source operating system can be installed by downloading the installer from the CM website. This somehow makes Google like 90's Microsoft? How many operating systems o…

> This somehow makes Google like 90's Microsoft?

You should have stopped there. Removing Cyanogenmod may not be it, but the rest of your post just opens it up for pointing out how Google is just like Microsoft.

> How many operating systems or web browsers did Microsoft open-source?

Red herring. Selling software and Operating Systems is Microsoft's core business, and you expect them to give it away? How much software that is the core of Google's business has Google given away? I see nothing of the search, advertising and distributed systems infrastructure being open sourced.

> How many forks of their software did Microsoft tolerate?

Hah, why don't we ask Acer that? The moment there's any leverage at all, Google will use it to squash forks. Conversely, has Microsoft ever tried to stop WINE or ReactOS? (Honest question, actually, I don't know.)

Now let's ask some more relevant questions:

1. How many times has Google been investigated and fined by the FTC and DOJ for illegal business practices?

2. How many times has Google been investigated by US and EU government agencies for privacy breaches?

3. How many times has Google been investigated for anti-competitive behavior in the US and the EU?

4. How many times has Google been accused (and sued) by smaller companies for unfair business practices?

5. How many times has Google been accused of intentionally providing poor support for a competitor's product?

6. How many times has Google been sued for infringing somebody else's IP?

7. Has Google been sued by Sun for "hijacking" Java?

8. Has Microsoft been made to pay damages for abusing standards-essential patents?

9. Has Microsoft been sued for colluding in anti-poaching agreements?

Some things Google has escaped (e.g. antitrust in the US), and some don't apply to Microsoft (abusing FRAND patents, anti-poaching collusion, illegal pharma ads), but most apply to both: investigations, settlements and fines in the US and EU for anticompetitive conduct, privacy breaches and illegal business practices; accusations of crippling competitors' products (Netscape etc. for Microsoft, competing service providers like Yelp, YouTube/Maps on Windows Phone for Google); accusations of stealing IP and unfair business practices (e.g. Apple's UI lawsuit and i4i for Microsoft, Author's Guild and SkyHook for Google); and so on.

Anecdotally, having been privy to some negotiations with Google in two separate companies, they very much throw their weight around.

> I wouldn't even bother responding to stuff like this, but it's getting upvoted on HN which is depressing.

As much as you'd not like to admit it as an employee -- and it may not be apparent to the rank and file from inside -- there are very clear parallels in how both companies behave. Google is certainly throwing their weight around these days, which is precisely why Microsoft was hated in the 90s.

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#167

Post by makomk » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 6:10 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #67

haberman wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that you cant install without voiding warranties So you think that a user should be able install an OS that bricks their phone and still have the phone still covered by warranty? How does that make sense? Is this people's expectation of Google, that if they don't give you whatever you want (at their own expense) then they are like 90s Microsoft?

It makes complete sense because it shouldn't be possible to brick the phone just from trying to install a different OS, and installing software shouldn't make it possible to void the warranty. Hardware and software should be separate.

Most of the phones that have been "bricked" by the CyanogenMod installer aren't actually permanently bricked, they're just not fixable by anyone who'd actually need the CyanogenMod installer to help them install it.

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#168

Post by haberman » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 6:52 PM UTC

throwawaykf02 wrote: post #166

haberman wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's recap. Prior to today, a community-developed fork of Google's open-source operating system could be installed by using an app from Google's own app store (which sometimes bricked the phone). After today, a community-developed fork of Google's open-source operating system can be installed by downloading the installer from the CM website. This somehow makes Google like 90's Microsoft? How many operating systems o…

> This somehow makes Google like 90's Microsoft? You should have stopped there. Removing Cyanogenmod may not be it, but the rest of your post just opens it up for pointing out how Google is just like Microsoft. > How many operating systems or web browsers did Microsoft open-source? Red herring. Selling software and Operating Systems is Microsoft's core business, and you expect them to give it away? How much software…

> Google is certainly throwing their weight around these days, which is precisely why Microsoft was hated in the 90s.

Not really. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with "throwing your weight around," as you put it. For example, that's exactly what IBM was doing when they decimated SCO's absurd lawsuit.

Microsoft was hated because they aggressively pushed out competitors in dishonest ways, because they intentionally made it difficult to interoperate with their software through proprietary protocols and file formats, and because they attacked open source.

Some of your questions directly illustrate why "throwing your weight around" can be a good thing. Did Sun/Oracle accuse Google of "stealing" Java? Yes, but do you really want to live in a world where people can copyright APIs, thereby giving creators of popular APIs a large amount of control over everyone else? I surely don't (and I say this as someone who has dedicated literally years of my life into designing APIs) but Oracle and Microsoft would like that world.

I don't "expect" Microsoft to give away anything, but the fact that their business model depends on tightly controlling it makes them an inherently less open source-friendly company than Google.

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#169

Post by thekiwi99 » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 7:33 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #8

While I view this move as hypocritical of Google, it does feel like it's in their customers' best interest. Think about it from a less technical perspective: I can install an app from the official Google Play store that voids my warranty . They can't have that on their public facing store. Google wants users to install apps, they don't want them to be afraid of voiding their warranty. It's interesting to see how thin…

While I agree that the Play Store is becoming more controlled, the fact that you can sideload apps means that ultimately, the platform itself is still very open -- maybe just not as much to the typical end user.

Re: CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store

#170

Post by moron4hire » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 7:45 PM UTC

veemjeem wrote: post #74

moron4hire wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes complete sense because it shouldn't be possible to brick the phone just from trying to install a different OS, and installing software shouldn't make it possible to void the warranty. Hardware and software should be separate.

Hm, at what point is hardware separate from software? When you write some C code that gets loaded on the Attiny85 chip, is that still considered software? Many SoCs come with the firmware already loaded so it just looks like a normal cpu when in actuality it contains a mini OS, graphics, networking, etc, all on a single QFN-72 package.

The point at which hardware is separate from software is when hardware is transistors and software is instructions. This isn't a difficult concept. And even if you want to get super pedantic in true insufferable-nerd fashion and argue about microcode, it doesn't apply to the operating system level, which is well, well into software level.