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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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211–220 of 271 posts

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#211

One question: has anyone else ever done the math on this? Let's suppose we have a basic income of $1,000 per month per citizen. This is barely enough to get by in someplace like eastern Washington and not enough to get by in someplace like Seattle but it's a nice round number so let's go with it. The US population is about 300 million. But let's assume only adult citizens receive basic income. If you want children yo…

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't basic income also increase the tax revenues from goods and services, and by creating more jobs because of the increased buying power of the poor? Especially since close to 100% of the basic income money will continue to circulate in the economy. Give Bill Gates a trillion dollars though and there's zero tax revenue on that.

Give Bill Gates a trillion dollars though and there's zero tax revenue on that.

Obviously I'm not advocating giving $1T to Bill Gates, but this is a fundamental misunderstanding that gets repeated over and over again. Rich people do not keep their money under their mattresses. Much of it they keep in a variety of financial instruments, most commonly stocks and bonds. Sale of stock is how many companies finance their operations, which includes, among other things, hiring people who pay taxes. Bonds are how corporations and governments fund things like building factories, roads and schools.

Even if Bill just kept it in the bank, the bank now has more money to lend at easier terms to businesses needing capital.

There is a serious economic study and debate about how much of a "multiplier" effect you get from handing money to a poor person vs. to a rich person. It wouldn't surprise me if it were higher for the poor person, but it's surely not 0 for the rich person.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you have to do is ask yourself, if you were getting this basic sum, would you be content to do nothing? The answer is probably no. I would do something, some kind of job, as would many people. If only for their sense of self worth / self esteem. I believe that almost everyone would get a job even though a basic income means they don't have to. Also keep in mind, that no matter what you do, there will ALWAYS be pe…

A LOT of kids finishing school would be quite content getting cheap housing, eating junk, and playing video games or hanging out all day every day. The longer they do, the less incentive to be productive. I wouldn't "do nothing", but before meeting my wife I was on track to reducing my expenses to near zero with intention of "going off the grid" with vanishingly little interaction with & contribution to society. BTW,…

A weapon for self defense as a last resort is fine, but I'd also want a good social net as well. The problem with self-reliance for security is that eventually, you must sleep.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#213
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think there are low crime rates for this reason. I have never implied this or stated this. In any case a comparison between Switzerland and US is bizarre -- there are far too many differences to idly (without multivariate analysis on data that is likely not even available) claim that any one variable explains lower crime rate in one vs. the other. [Edit: I previously included a longer rant here, but, I'll…

You are perfectly able to own an automatic rifle manufactured before 1986. The only thing preventing such ownership is simply that the number of rifles that fit this criteria is becoming less and less by the day, which means that the price for a weapon like this is high. Granted, this means that a member of the US armed forces cannot keep his M4. > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free S…

I don't think "pay enormous cost for a 20 year old firearm, get permission from the local law enforcement (which won't be granted to anyone in California who isn't a Hollywood producer), wait for the federal paper work for several months, pay additional fees" is "perfectly".

Even prior to 1986 FOPA amendment, the number of people who actually owned such firearms was low -- but then again, they were only used in two crimes, in both cases by police officers. Most people who take advantage of this are collectors and movie makers.

As for me, I'll pass on jumping through enormous hoops only to buy a machine that turns money into noise: ask a member of the US armed forces how many times he's actually used the M4 or M16 in fully auto or even burst as opposed to semi-auto. This is reflected in the M16/AR-15 design: they aren't designed for "spray and pray", they're designed for carefully aimed and disciplined fire in semi-auto mode (with occasional full-auto bursts for supressive fire or against metal armour).

> I personally think not. Is there really a difference between hand grenades and automatic rifles? Again, I personally think not.

Well for starters, go to a range that rents automatics (like one in Las Vegas), shoot a fully automatic rifle, and then put it down. Then, pull the pin on a hand-grenade, drop the hand-grenade next you, and then stand in place :-) [No, I don't actually encourage you to do this]. Or you may want to consider why police cruisers have rifles (albeit semi-automatics) but not (explosive) grenades -- rifles are person-to-person weapons, grenades are effectively area/anti-materiel weapons. (Random note: When I lived in USSR, my school PE classes actually included "grenade toss" -- you'd toss a stick grenade filled with inert substance -- as a sport; it's quite challenging.)

I think the difference is immense, they're completely different kinds of weapons -- first of all hand grenades, aren't technically arms if you use the definition of arms used when the constitution was written.

They would not be protected by the second amendment even if fully automatic weapons were. Fully automatic weapons on the other hand aren't protected for the same reason "shouting fire in a crowded theater" (as much as I hate this phrase...) isn't protected, grenades are not protected for the same reason that setting fire to a theater isn't protected.

While this isn't tested, semi-auto rifles, are almost certainly protected -- as they're owned by civilians in great numbers (unlike hand grenades or automatic rifles) and compare to pistols (demonstrated per case law to be protected by second amendment) are far less frequently used in homicides (despite there being more rifles/shotguns in circulation than pistols). This certainly passes the "unusual and dangerous test" used in Heller to rule out automatic rifles, hand-grenades, missiles, nukes, etc... and all the other frequently asserted strawmen.

I'll point you at an excellent book that offers a far more nuanced reading of the second amendment than either side wants to admit -- http://www.amazon.com/Gunfight-Battle-Over-Right-America/dp/... -- including the discussion of what militia means (which is different from what it means in Switzerland, although not entirely unrelated)

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#214

Until the point where we decide that The problem is, in essence, all you are doing is disincentivizing one person to work by paying them with another person who has chosen to work. Money is the ultimate incentive. Not to mentioned the effects on the overall economy. What do you think happens when everyone has more money to spend? Prices go up, and your 5k/month becomes worth what 2k was a few years ago.

Not everyone will have more money to spend. The proposal isn't based on printing more money, but shifting it around through taxes. In fact, it can lead to deflation.

Assume that Alice has a million dollars and Bob has nothing. Eve sells pumpkins. She's currently charging $1000 per pumpkin, which cost her $100 to grow. She makes $900 profit.

Now, we add the minimum income proposal. Alice is taxed $900 and this $900 is given to Bob. Even would then lower her price to $900. Bob is better offer, since he now has a pumpkin. Eve is better off, as she made $1600 in profit, as opposed to her old 900. Alice is out $800 dollars compared to the old system, but that's less than the $900 she was taxed.

Of course, this was just an example and there's no guarantee that it would go down this way. On the other hand, there's no evidence that it must head down the inflation road, either.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#215

The author is a little confused about the history of Libertarian thought on this issue. A minimum basic income (MBI) is NOT a social progressive concept first thought up by western social democrats but was originally a fundamental tenant of a flat tax system. Something Libertarian's have been arguing in favor of for a long time. The basic design is simple. You give every person a single dollar amount as a MBI and the…

> A tax rate that is perfectly progressive No, its flat. A flat tax is not progressive. The point of a progressive tax system is that the marginal impact is greater at higher income levels. > Increased income has no tax disincentives (your tax rate doesn't change because you move into a higher income.) In a progressive income tax system where the top marginal rate is > Simplifies that tax code dramatically (which wou…

> No, its flat. A flat tax is not progressive. The point of a progressive tax system is that the marginal impact is greater at higher income levels.

Marginal impact is greater. Using the numbers I listed above your marginal tax rate at a income of $10k/year is NEGATIVE 100%, at an income of $100k/year it would be 0%, at $500k/year it would be 8%, at $1m/year it would be 9%... asymptotic increasing towards 10%.

> ...there is always a positive incentive to higher income

Sorry, you are correct. I should have said there is increased income doesn't increase disincentives.

> Only if the flat rate is set very high compared to the existing rates paid by most of the population.

The point wasn't being made on total net revenue but on cost per dollar collected due to compliance enforcement and bureaucratic overhead. Regardless the flat tax rate CAN be set very high as long as there is a corresponding offset in the MBI. Ultimately the ACTUAL rate people pay could be similar to the amount they currently pay but normalized over the population as a whole.

> If this includes taxing capital gains as income

> To do this, government has to alter the definition of taxable income

Which is why I specifically mentioned ALL income.

> This does not eliminate their ability to make similar decisions in the future

This is very true, and probably the strongest argument you made in your post. Hopefully such exemptions would "stand out" with such a simplified tax structure but any government that exists will continually work to expand it's power at the expense of the governed.

> Everybody feels the effect of rate changes now

Everybody does NOT feel the effects of a rate change as often lower tax rates are unmodified while higher tax rates are adjusted.

> Define "market freedom".

Sorry, "market freedom" is both to general and arguable incorrectly used in this case. I should have said it equalizes market manipulation by the government.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By drug/criminal cartels, not by poor.

Who do you think the cartels recruit from? its not gap year kids doing it for kicks.

Do you think cartels will have trouble recruiting people once everyone have 20k a year to spend? They gonna have even more money since a big chunk of those 20k will be spent on the drugs they are selling.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have the same problem today. For instance, food stamps can be sold/wasted, and not everyone who needs them signs up.

Right, so why bother incurring more cost for the same outcome? It's like refactoring your code for speed and ignoring the DDoS that's bringing your app down in the first place.

Because basic income isn't just "keep everything exactly the same, but it's more expensive". There's more to it than that. Nobody has ever argued for basic income by saying it'll fix only the problem you stated (irresponsible people dying on the street).

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#218
So, how do you propose to do this without having me pay more than the 25% of my income I already pay in taxes?

As it is I'd rather spend my tax bill on my sick mother, rather than to some person I've never met to do whatever he wishes with.

Let the people proposing the basic income be the first to pay into it - to the maximum extent possible. The napkin math doesn't add up even for measly amounts of income.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#219

One question: has anyone else ever done the math on this? Let's suppose we have a basic income of $1,000 per month per citizen. This is barely enough to get by in someplace like eastern Washington and not enough to get by in someplace like Seattle but it's a nice round number so let's go with it. The US population is about 300 million. But let's assume only adult citizens receive basic income. If you want children yo…

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't basic income also increase the tax revenues from goods and services, and by creating more jobs because of the increased buying power of the poor? Especially since close to 100% of the basic income money will continue to circulate in the economy. Give Bill Gates a trillion dollars though and there's zero tax revenue on that.

Increase? Maybe. Double? I doubt it!

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#220

One question: has anyone else ever done the math on this? Let's suppose we have a basic income of $1,000 per month per citizen. This is barely enough to get by in someplace like eastern Washington and not enough to get by in someplace like Seattle but it's a nice round number so let's go with it. The US population is about 300 million. But let's assume only adult citizens receive basic income. If you want children yo…

Virtually every minimum income proposal I've read about involves it being clawed back through taxation when you're earning more money. A key difference is it isn't means tested - you don't have to prove that you deserve a living - instead, at the end of the year at tax time, the income you report determines whether the government decides to basically claw back the basic income in the form of tax. In practice I don't…

Adding several thousand dollars of incentive to commit tax evasion is also a risk.
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